Pieces Not Fit for Purpose

[NatBalance]

Not sure if that title is fit for purpose itself as it tends to imply the pieces are not good. Anyway, I've just listened (on Radio 3) to that brilliant piece by John Adams, The Chairman Dances. Absolutely wonderfull …. BUT …. do I see a Chariman dancing when I hear it?

Well, no, not really. It's a bit of a struggle. What I do see is something mechanical, in particular a steam locomotive, an image which is enhanced by the way the music gradually increases in speed at the beginning and then gradually comes to a 'halt' at the end. Not something you normally do when dancing. Perhaps if I saw the opera and how that music fits the scene I would think differently. There are other pieces that do not fit their purpose, or title, the imagery they are trying to convey, but I can't bring them to mind at the moment. Does anyone else have pieces that they think do not fit their title?

There are of course pieces who's meaning, imagery (whatever the correct way of expressing it is) has been totally altered from the composer's, the classic one being a piece by Khachaturian from his ballet Spartacus which I believe was composed as a love theme but who (of a certain age) now thinks of love when hearing it? Do I need to state which piece I mean and why? We'll have to exclude such pieces from this debate I think.

Music as a way of describing something is of course not a precise medium, but on the other hand it can also 'say' things which cannot be expressed in words.

Rich

[ahinton]

Not sure if that title is fit for purpose itself as it tends to imply the pieces are not good. Anyway, I've just listened (on Radio 3) to that brilliant piece by John Adams, The Chairman Dances. Absolutely wonderfull …. BUT …. do I see a Chariman dancing when I hear it?

Well, no, not really. It's a bit of a struggle. What I do see is something mechanical, in particular a steam locomotive, an image which is enhanced by the way the music gradually increases in speed at the beginning and then gradually comes to a 'halt' at the end. Not something you normally do when dancing.

OK, I admit that I have never danced in my life but it occurs to me to ask what kind of dancing could you imagine being done by a man in a chair?

That said, the pricnipal problem with the thrust of your thread seems to me to be determining what the intended "purpose" of any piece might be, boit least because it would surely be far more difficult to identify one in some cases than in others.

[MrGongGong]

Does anyone else have pieces that they think do not fit their title?

Feldman's Three Clarinets, Cello abd Piano?
errrr hang on a minute

The "Roseal" of titles

[ahinton]

Feldman's Three Clarinets, Cello abd Piano?
errrr hang on a minute

The "Roseal" of titles

I think that you mean Ronseal, yes?

That said, if anything by Feldman has a purpose for which it could be said to be fit or otherwise, it'd be news to me...

[MrGongGong]

I think that you mean Ronseal, yes?

Indeed I did

EVERYTHING by Feldman is fit for porpoise imv

[NatBalance]

That said, the pricnipal problem with the thrust of your thread seems to me to be determining what the intended "purpose" of any piece might be, boit least because it would surely be far more difficult to identify one in some cases than in others.

Not all pieces of music are composed to describe a feeling, a story, subject, whatever, they are just pieces of music ...... but some are.

[NatBalance]

Actually I've just relistened to The Chairman Dances and it doesn't start off slow, that happens in the middle.

[ahinton]

Indeed I did

EVERYTHING by Feldman is fit for porpoise imv

But for what porpoise/s? This, as I mentioned earlier, illustrates the pricipal problem here, namely that of determining what intended purpose/s any piece might have.

[Richard Tarleton]

Does having John Adams's account of what's going on in your mind help?

A scenario by Peter Sellars and Alice Goodman, somewhat altered from the final one in Nixon in China, is as follows:

“Chiang Ch’ing, a.k.a. Madame Mao, has gatecrashed the Presidential Banquet. She is first seen standing where she is most in the way of the waiters. After a few minutes, she brings out a box of paper lanterns and hangs them around the hall, then strips down to a cheongsam, skin-tight from neck to ankle and slit up the hip. She signals the orchestra to play and begins dancing by herself. Mao is becoming excited. He steps down from his portrait on the wall, and they begin to foxtrot together. They are back in Yenan, dancing to the gramophone…”

"Surreal" is his word for it. Seeing it staged must help - I dimly remember seeing it on TV decades ago - but to expect the music on its own to conjure up such an image is a tall order, it's a piece of music.

[doversoul1]

Didn’t a pre-war Japanese government (or who/whatever it was) reject Britten’s work because it didn’t fit their/its purpose? And Monteverdi’s Vespers and Bach’s Brandenburg didn’t get them the jobs they wanted so these works didn’t fir the purpose. And what was that that was turned down as un-danceable?

Is this the sort of things you are talking about (I guess not)?

[ed.] I can’t remember about Monteverdi (I haven’t checked)

[Pulcinella]

Didn’t a pre-war Japanese government (or who/whatever it was) reject Britten’s work because it didn’t fit their/its purpose?

The Japanese government commissioned a piece to celebrate the 2600th anniversary of the Mikado dynasty, a few weeks into the Second World War.
It was a little naive of Britten to offer them his Sinfonia da Requiem, with its Christian references, though there might have been some misunderstanding if Britten had taken the invitation to intend a piece written 'in memory' of the first emperor.

According to John Bridcut, in his book Essential Britten, the Japanese were very diplomatic in their rejection, saying that it had arrived too late for adequate rehearsal.

[Richard Barrett]

It was a little naive of Britten to offer them his Sinfonia da Requiem

It could be said that it was at the very least naive of Britten to offer them anything at all, given the use of the anniversary as propaganda in the ongoing imperialist aggression against China (soon to be expanded into a war with the USA also) by Japan, a country allied as an Axis power with fascist Germany and Italy.

[Pulcinella]

It could be said that it was at the very least naive of Britten to offer them anything at all, given the use of the anniversary as propaganda in the ongoing imperialist aggression against China (soon to be expanded into a war with the USA also) by Japan, a country allied as an Axis power with fascist Germany and Italy.

I read (liner notes to the CBSO/Rattle EMI recording) that the invitation (to Britten) came via the British Council, so perhaps they too could have been a bit more worldy wise at the time!

[Richard Barrett]

I read (liner notes to the CBSO/Rattle EMI recording) that the invitation (to Britten) came via the British Council, so perhaps they too could have been a bit more worldly wise at the time!

Indeed. Richard Strauss was selected by Goebbels himself to take on the German contribution and responded enthusiastically with his Japanische Festmusik, possibly the worst thing he ever wrote, so that was "unfit for purpose" in another way.

Another piece that occurs to me in this connection is Berlioz's Harold en Italie, written for Paganini but rejected by him on account of not having a sufficiently flashy solo part, although later on he attended a performance and was so impressed he went onstage with Berlioz to congratulate him and a bt later sent him a cheque for 20 000 francs.

[Pulcinella]

Richard's thoughts might lead to a slightly different take on the thread: pieces (initially or completely) rejected by their dedicatee/commissioner.

Walton's Viola concerto, Barber's Violin concerto, and some of Paul Wittgenstein's left-hand commissions spring immediately to mind.