BBC Music Day

[french frank]

Leaving aside the point about the music being currently performed in at least four continents (which classical shares with popular music and is just a comment on its popularity),

That misses the point: that popular music IS broadcast, widely, on the BBC and classical music is excluded in spite of this 'popularity'.

I think there is a great deal that we in the West do not know about the much more extensive traditions of for instance Chinese music, or music from the Middle East. It's a shame when we are exposed - commercially and through the BBC - to so much of Western music that we still know so little of these other traditions.

I agree with that, completely - and I think it's Radio 3's role, in particular, to make it known and to talk about it. With World on 3 and Late Junction there should be ample opportunity for this but, unfortunately, that is not what they were conceived to be. Apart from throwing in the odd bit of Hildegard of Bingen or Arvo Pärt now and again, Late Junction is largely an outlet for less commercialised popular music; as is World on 3.

[MrGongGong]

. Apart from throwing in the odd bit of Hildegard of Bingen or Arvo Pärt now and again, Late Junction is largely an outlet for less commercialised popular music; as is World on 3.

I think you might be making the (common) mistake of assuming that the genres that appear to exist in Western Music are somehow Universal.
My experience of working with musicians from other cultures often suggests otherwise.

[aeolium]

That misses the point: that popular music IS broadcast, widely, on the BBC and classical music is excluded in spite of this 'popularity'.

I'm not sure why you keep on talking about classical music being excluded from the BBC mainstream services - surely Radio 3 is one of the mainstream radio services? And BBC4 which has a fair amount of classical programming especially during the Proms is surely one of the mainstream TV services (for that matter popular music on TV is also mainly on that channel even though it has a much larger audience). Compare that with the almost total absence of non-Western music on the BBC's output.

[french frank]

I'm not sure why you keep on talking about classical music being excluded from the BBC mainstream services - surely Radio 3 is one of the mainstream radio services?

No, it isn't. It is a 'minority interest' service with a small audience. By 'mainstream', I mean services which have fairly substantial general (non-specialist) audiences. Even BBC Four is not a 'mainstream' television service, but being television it gets bigger audiences than radio. On Music Day, classical music was also excluded from BBC Four ('the home of classical music on television').

And BBC4 which has a fair amount of classical programming especially during the Proms is surely one of the mainstream TV services (for that matter popular music on TV is also mainly on that channel even though it has a much larger audience). Compare that with the almost total absence of non-Western music on the BBC's output.

The Proms are on for only two months in the year, there are relatively few concerts televised on BBC Four and these now include the 'lighter' Proms so that they could be ditched by BBC Two. The point about such programmes as are on BBC Four throughout the year is that they are almost all documentaries anyway. Their connection with classical music is about the same as a documentary about Ptolemy's Geographia has with Classical Greek. Yes, and I've agreed with your point about non-Western music. I don't see that as invalidating what I'm saying about the BBC coverage of classical music.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It seems to be bleeding into The Choir today.... The lucky R3 audience is promised:

Karl Jenkins's Adiemus, Blokefest

Sara Mohr-Pietsch looks ahead to 'Blokefest', where men gather together in the Wiltshire countryside to enjoy a long weekend of choral singing and male bonding. Her choral classic is Karl Jenkins's chart topping Adiemus.

Mind you, you have to love these quaint rural euphemisms.

One thing I know is that there is likely to be a resounding click at Caliban Towers around 3.59pm... Because Choral Evensong sounds from the Choir thread to be a bit of alright So to be fair to R3, something for everyone....

Keep up Cali. The Choir is nearly always like this nowadays.

[french frank]

Apart from throwing in the odd bit of Hildegard of Bingen or Arvo Pärt now and again, Late Junction is largely an outlet for less commercialised popular music; as is World on 3.

I think you might be making the (common) mistake of assuming that the genres that appear to exist in Western Music are somehow Universal.
My experience of working with musicians from other cultures often suggests otherwise.

Could you clarify your comment with reference to what I said, please? Other than the phrase 'less commercialised popular music' I've made no reference to genres in western or any other music. I was taking up aeolium's point about 'the much more extensive traditions of for instance Chinese music, or music from the Middle East' and saying they don't get a whole lot of coverage on either LJ or Wo3.

[aeolium]

No, it isn't. It is a 'minority interest' service with a small audience.

Isn't that what classical music is too?

The point about such programmes as are on BBC Four throughout the year is that they are almost all documentaries anyway. Their connection with classical music is about the same as a documentary about Ptolemy's Geographia has with Classical Greek.

I'm not sure that's right about documentaries - what about the BBC Young Musician and Singer of the World competition coverage? But documentaries can in any case be a good introduction to music - I thought some of the biographical documentaries on composers e.g. Elgar, Vaughan-Williams, Britten very interesting. You yourself have complained about the lack of critical speech programmes about the music on R3. Personally I'm not sure how much TV adds to music in concert - for one thing the sound on most TVs is terrible, far worse than can be obtained on even a basic Hi-fi system. But I think if you looked at the coverage of all music on TV, you would not discover a mass of popular music on BBC1 and BBC2 (apart from the odd festival like Glastonbury), or anywhere on BBC TV because BBC prefers generally to leave music to radio & I don't think that's a bad approach.

[french frank]

Isn't that what classical music is too?

My argument would be that it will remain so if new audiences have no chance to become familiar with it, other than by deliberately seeking it out. Two points from that: 1) The audience is generally older and needs to attract younger audiences and 2) if Radio 3 is the only place where they can find it - on a regular basis - the result is what we saw under the previous controller: attempts to make everything easier for a general audience - the dictionary definition of dumbing down, which doesn't please those already listening 2) Yes, you've come up with a few hours of music (though the ratio of music to talk might be mentioned), but I think my careful 'almost all documentaries' could be accepted as covering that point. The point about the lack of critical speech programmes on Radio 3 is irrelevant (yes, there should be more in my opinion) in a discussion about the lack of music on television. There is also a difference in the potential audiences: Discovering Music would be welcomed back by many people, but it probably wouldn't be the best general introduction to the music.

I agree that on the whole - and certainly from the point of view of sound quality - music is better on radio. But this discussion started off with BBC Music Day and the fact that BBC Four was all pop programmes. For introducing new audiences to classical music sound quality is probably less important to people who frequently listen on their iPhones. The visuals have an opportunity to dispel myths: Young Musician is an example of how the participants are 'ordinary' young people; they're casual, they wear jeans! I'd love to see a regular TV slot given over to R3's New Generation protégés playing chamber music informally, maybe rehearsing even.

[aeolium]

I don't think you give credit for people's ability to find what they want to watch and listen to on the BBC - or on other channels and the internet. It's hardly as though Radio 3 is undiscoverable except to intrepid radio explorers.

And BBC Four is not generally "all pop programmes" as the coming week's schedules suggest. It's mostly not music programmes at all, though there's a fair amount of pop music on Friday, but then Sunday has an (admittedly rare) opera double-bill.

I've already suggested that in proportion to the relative popularity of the genres, popular music does not get excessive coverage on BBC TV compared with classical music (indeed, neither get a large amount of coverage). The BBC also does a lot through its patronage of the Proms which get blanket coverage on radio and reasonable coverage on TV. I don't think - whatever the failings of the BBC Music Day - that there's a good case for arguing that the BBC fails in its coverage except in specific areas, for instance contemporary non-popular music and music from other world traditions.

[Zucchini]

But this discussion started off with BBC Music Day and the fact that BBC Four was all pop programmes ...

As for my point about 'exclusion', for the second year running BBC Four had nothing but a series of programmes about pop music (plus a news programme at the beginning).

For some years BBC4 has scheduled music documentaries back to back throughout every Friday evening. It attracts some of BBC4's largest audiences. It was a proven perfect fit for Music Day.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

For some years BBC4 has scheduled music documentaries back to back throughout every Friday evening. It attracts some of BBC4's largest audiences. It was a proven perfect fit for Music Day.

So ... on Music Day, the BBC is only going to highlight programmes that "attract ... [the] largest audiences"? (Which is precisely what some of us have been moaning about from the start.)

[MrGongGong]

My argument would be that it will remain so if new audiences have no chance to become familiar with it, other than by deliberately seeking it out. .

Context (again!)

The Rite of Spring is a wonderful thing
Stumbling on it on TV isn't likely to inspire those unfamiliar with it to seek it out
Sitting in front of it played live is life changing
I had the same experience with Rheingold, Motorhead, Orfeo & Acousmatic music
Those who "stumble" upon 'classical' music (or have it played to them in school assembly) and then are smitten for life are the exceptions and really odd indeed.

Reading what some folks write one might think there was somehow a conspiracy against 'classical' music! When the truth is that there really IS one against electroacoustic music (or I might think so given its coverage on the BBC!)

[MrGongGong]

Anyway

What was Patrick Bailey's piece like?
I missed it and rate him very highly as an inspiring musician and conductor.

[french frank]

Those who "stumble" upon 'classical' music (or have it played to them in school assembly) and then are smitten for life are the exceptions and really odd indeed.

It may be the case now that hearing pieces played at morning assembly (which I doubt it is in the majority of schools) would only attract a small number - but that small number matters. But it isn't about any particular piece of music, it's the familiarisation with Another Music apart from charts music and, as they get older, the popular music that was around in their youth. There is no way of knowing how many "really odd" people there may be floating around …

And live performances may well be life-changing, but kids who don't even know what an orchestral concert is are no more likely to decide to go to a live concert than they are to tune in to Radio 3 on the off-chance there might be something interesting

Reading what some folks write one might think there was somehow a conspiracy against 'classical' music!

Ignoring it when it simply passes under your radar isn't a conspiracy!

When the truth is that there really IS one against electroacoustic music (or I might think so given its coverage on the BBC!)

And the truth is that if the mainstream largely ignores classical music, what chance has electroacoustic got anywhere on the BBC? Pop/popular musics are now building up their canon of classics over the decades and with the quantity of contemporary around as well, that'll be enough for most people for a lifetime.

[MrGongGong]

It may be the case now that hearing pieces played at morning assembly (which I doubt it is in the majority of schools) would only attract a small number - but that small number matters. But it isn't about any particular piece of music, it's the familiarisation with Another Music apart from charts music and, as they get older, the popular music that was around in their youth. There is no way of knowing how many "really odd" people there may be floating around …

Indeed the idea that music has many functions needs to be encouraged
But (you know I will say this) context really is everything in this respect

Many people in 'classical' music are far to attached to the trappings that go with it that have precious little to do with MUSIC
I think these days the radio is probably the last place I would go to encourage wider listening
I'm currently editing some scores of pieces made by teenagers, I've been sending them things to listen to, all sorts of stuff that relates to what they have made (from Gabrielli to Crumb to Xenakis to Aphex Twin etc etc ) BUT I very rarely suggest they tune into the radio at random.