Use of male voices in early (ish) music

[Dave2002]

I asked recently (Bargains thread) about the use of male voices in some music, such as by Monteverdi. I found that there is reference to a performance of L'Arianna in 1608 in which the role of Arianna was taken by Virginia Ramponi-Andreini ("La Florinda") soprano, so presumably women were employed in dramatic roles in Italy in the early 17th Century.

On the other hand, we know (don't we?) that in England the roles of female characters in Shakespeare's plays were taken by men in Shakespeare's time. I don't know what roles women had, if any, in earlier medieval drama, such as miracle or mystery plays.

It may have been commonplace for men to take roles including "obviously" female ones, both in church music and drama, and also in entertainments.

We also know that many roles in opera/oratorio were taken by male castrati. I think that there was a period in which church music made use of boys voices (male altos) for the soprano parts.

Were there different traditions in church music or in theatrical or leisure entertainment? During which periods were castrati employed, and how did this affect musical and dramatic productions. Also, were the traditions significantly different in different countries?

What about cross dressing roles? These clearly feature in Mozart's operas (e.g Cherubino in MoF) but were male castrati (as opposed to the female sort ) used to perform female characters, or did they always represent men? Note also that even in 1791 Mozart had probably written for a castrato, as the role of Sento in La Clemenza di Tito is a soprano role representing a man, or was that also a cross dressing role?

[DracoM]

The generally accepted notion is that Shakespeare's women were played in public either by boys or young men. Do you have evidence for women playing women in public performance in Shakespeare's own day?

[Dave2002]

The generally accepted notion is that Shakespeare's women were played in public either by boys or young men. Do you have evidence for women playing women in public performance in Shakespeare's own day?

Oops - that was a typo - not sure how it got in - maybe on a re-edit.

Made you think though, didn't it? Thanks!

[Richard Barrett]

We also know that many roles in opera/oratorio were taken by male castrati.

Castrati never played female roles in opera. They would generally be playing the male romantic lead (how's that for suspension of disbelief?).

It's maybe also worth mentioning that 300 years ago boys' voices broke a few years later than they do now, so that the soprano parts in Bach's vocal ensemble were sung by relatively experienced singers (Bach's own voice broke at 15, for example), producing a sound which simply can't be reproduced in the 21st century.

[doversoul1]

As my internet connection is down to the speed of dial-up, I’m afraid this has to be rather vague (no details check).

There was a papal ban in Rome on female performing in public which resulted in all female characters in opera performed by castrati. There have been (at least) two modern-day revival on the works from this era; Artaserse by Leonardo Vince and Il Sant’ Alessio by Stefano Landi. Both were all male cast in accordance with the original, but I wouldn’t call them cross dressing, since they are playing female roles (in the same way as onna-gata in Kabuki theatre) and not men acting as women.

I don't think this was the case in Venice.

Castrato wasn’t the only male high voice; French had high tenor and countertenor / falsettos in English church music. As for the latter, Andrew Parrott has published an extensive study in his book Composers’ Intentions? from The Boydell Press 2015.

In case I can’t connect, I’ll stop here.

[ardcarp]

Then there's the Three Ladies of Ferrara...and this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerto_delle_donne

[doversoul1]

Dave 2002 (from the Bargain thread)

Then I thought that perhaps that is actually probably more authentic. I wondered if some of Robert King's performances would be more authentic, perhaps using boy's voices where appropriate. However, from some that I've heard so far, some of those also use women's voices. I don't actually know if that is strictly incorrect, but Monteverdi might have been composing at a time when most parts were taken by men. Pieces such as Lamento d' Arianna logically should be sung by women, but I'm uncertain if that was actually the practice at the time those pieces were written. There presumably was an era when there was a transition from all male singers to a more sensible use of female voices, but I'm not sure when exactly that would have been.

Other than church music and operas, most music was performed in private settings of various scales where madrigals and cantatas (and maybe even operas) were sung by women as well as men.

[LeMartinPecheur]

They would generally be playing the male romantic lead (how's that for suspension of disbelief?).

No need for total suspension of disbelief at the time. Apparently castrati were very popular between the sheets with the ladies. They somehow managed to satisfy, and effective contraception was guaranteed!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

No need for total suspension of disbelief at the time. Apparently castrati were very popular between the sheets with the ladies. They somehow managed to satisfy, and effective contraception was guaranteed!

IIRC, there is/was a difference between "Castrati" and "Eunuchs". The former had their testicles removed before pubescence, but the penis was not removed; the latter had their genitalia completely removed. Castrati were/are able to reach tumescence - and thus the ability to give and receive satisfaction.

[Richard Barrett]

IIRC, there is/was a difference between "Castrati" and "Eunuchs". The former had their testicles removed before pubescence*, but the penis was not removed; the latter had their genitalia completely removed.

Either way it cost them a packet.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Either way it cost them a packet.

You'll get me the sack.

[Dave2002]

Thanks for explaining the differences fhg, though I almost wish I'd not asked for information in this area!

Do we know when the papal ban mentioned earlier was in force?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Do we know when the papal ban mentioned earlier was in force?

The ban against women singing (or making any kind of noise) in Church continued into the 20th Century, and only gradually fizzled out. Papal bans tended to reflect upon/react to practices, so when in 1983, the "Codex of Church Law" allowed women singers, it was probably clarifying a position that had been practically happening for some time.

http://www.womenpriests.org/traditio/singers.asp

Women performers on stage was regular practice from much earlier, of course - the cult of the Castrato had died out by Napoleonic times.

[Dave2002]

Do we know when that papal ban came into force? Also, perhaps, was there any reason, sensible or otherwise, for it?
Which Pope(s if there was more than one)?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Do we know when that papal ban came into force? Also, perhaps, was there any reason, sensible or otherwise, for it?

I think it's ancient, Dave - stemming from St Paul and his "let women keep silent in Church".