Is Haydn the new Beethoven?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As I said, 'to my ears his music overflows with melody/wit/rhythm/compassion'. I imagine many here might feel the same. My seemingly-struggling-to-be-recognised point () was that apparently programmers and a broader public don't appear to. It was this phenomenon I was contemplating.

Ah, I beg your pardon - I misunderstood your statement in #38:

I love Haydn but I think he may get sidelined a bit by programmers and a broader listening public, partly because his music/melodies don't seem to be headline grabbing in the way that those of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven can be, and partly perhaps because one senses in his music a less assertive, less demanding aspect to his psyche.

... to be assertions of your own ideas about the Music, not what you wondered what other people thought about it.

It is difficult (for me) to understand how others react to a composer - I wonder, though, if it's more simply a case of a vicious circle: the standard symphony orchestra programmer doesn't programme Haydn because "Haydn doesn't bring in audiences"; so audiences don't come to performances of his Music because it isn't programmed? I wonder this, because audiences for chamber Music events don't get smaller if Haydn is programmed, nor do smaller orchestras lose custom if they programme the works. It just seems to be the larger orchestral ensembles (? and just in the English-speaking parts of the world? - no idea about this).

There may be a number of talented people in the spotlight who wish privately they weren't there. Circumstances rather than desire having conveyed them.

I'm sure there are, but all the biographical evidence suggests that Haydn wasn't one of these, and (for the most part - there were occasions when he wished he could have some time to himself) he greatly enjoyed the adulation given to his Music (and, in London, to himself) - not least, because it allowed for greater opportunity to earn considerably more money from publication; especially from giving "exclusive" publishing rights to two or more different publishers! (He certainly would have preferred if that information had been kept out of the spotlight! )

But I was posing a query of Haydn, not stating a strong belief.

Again, my apologies - I had overlooked this.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I know I going to get some reaction from this, but, imo, Johann Sebastian Bach, is the guvnor!

Excellent choice, Bbm - no greater composer.

[MickyD]

I am doing nothing of the sort. Haydn's Piano Music simply bores me, outside of the couple of Sonatas that are featured on recital programs, usually as a warm piece for the Soloist who can then flex his or her muscles on more interesting fare later in the program. To bad that I live on the opposite side of the pond, as I could make someone on this forum a gift of my Brautigan set of the complete Sonatas, which takes up a lot of shelf space and rarely gets played.

Oh Richard, I am so sad to hear you say that - I have that Brautigam set and absolutely love it.

[Bryn]

Oh Richard, I am so sad to hear you say that - I have that Brautigam set and absolutely love it.

I would agree that it is a fine set, though I also think it a bit strange that Brautigam chose to use the same instrument throughout. Still, there are always Schornsheim and Beghin who each offer a range of instruments to suit the various stages of the composer's compositional life.

[Tetrachord]

... I have always found Haydn's piano works much more interesting - both to play and to listen to - than Mozart's.

I don't think you can compare Haydn or Mozart's works here with those of Beethoven or Schubert - the entire zeitgeist, soundworld, aesthetic changes so radically in that time. And unless you subscribe to a Whig view of history it is not a question artistically that things have 'improved' over that time...

Absolutely agree!! In fact, I find Haydn's symphonies much more interesting and engaging - except for Mozart's last 3 or 4!! I prefer 38, 39 and 41.

The 'later' piano sonatas are interesting to play and deconstruct for analysis, but they are played in usually such a precious and anodyne fashion that I quickly become bored. If you analyse many of them you'll find great harmonic inventiveness but this is seldom evident in performance. And Mozart's sonatas have slipped out of favour for recitals; I suspect they are mainly used for didactic purposes these days. Even Ronald Brautigam cannot breathe new life into them, IMO!!! (I consider him a fabulous musician.)

[MickyD]

I would agree that it is a fine set, though I also think it a bit strange that Brautigam chose to use the same instrument throughout. Still, there are always Schornsheim and Beghin who each offer a range of instruments to suit the various stages of the composer's compositional life.

Oh yes, the Schornsheim is well worth having - I seem to remember some of us on here got the set for an incredibly low price when it first came out.

[Richard Barrett]

Oh yes, the Schornsheim is well worth having - I seem to remember some of us on here got the set for an incredibly low price when it first came out.

Indeed. But - although I like the idea of using different instruments for different stages in the oeuvre, I think Brautigam's playing has so much more character and expression that it's the set I almost invariably reach for. (Like now!)

[Tetrachord]

Agreed about "Slipped Disc"!!! I just found it and thought you might be interested.

I'm not sure what you meant by "stereotyped" (though I know what the word itself means).

Today I've been trying to find Ronald Brautigam performances of Mozart sonatas on U-Tube; have only found this one, which is a joy!!!
(Love the artwork of him with Serkin!) And Ronald is such eye candy!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fk1GGJspzw

[Richard Barrett]

I'm not sure what you meant by "stereotyped" (though I know what the word itself means).

I mean that Mozart often relies on the "Alberti bass" and similar kinds of broken-chord accompaniments for long stretches, whereas Haydn tends not to.

[Serial_Apologist]

I mean that Mozart often relies on the "Alberti bass" and similar kinds of broken-chord accompaniments for long stretches, whereas Haydn tends not to.

...and trills on the dominant ending paragraphs!

[MickyD]

Indeed. But - although I like the idea of using different instruments for different stages in the oeuvre, I think Brautigam's playing has so much more character and expression that it's the set I almost invariably reach for. (Like now!)

I certainly agree with you there, Richard - and his Mozart set is, to my ears, just as riveting.

[jean]

Just come back from RLPO Season Launch.

One Haydn quartet. That's it.

[Tetrachord]

These are all elements of the classical style of that period and one of the reasons this now bores me. But Haydn's music doesn't bore me as Mozart's does.

When I was 35 I thought Mozart was magnificent but I grew tired of his sound world; there wasn't enough angularity. It was, well, anodyne, pretty; matter how fabulously crafted. I've always felt it was like that to avoid shock, to be consciously beautiful, but one can quickly weary of these things as the years go by and we stack life experience under out belts. And most musicians play Mozart on the piano as though it's about to break!!

That's my take anyway; plenty of people disagree with me. Mozart seldom appears in my CD collection these days. And you know what? I put that down to a man being only 35 when he composed his 'mature' works; you can hear that!! The late symphonies and a couple of the operas probably don't fit that category, as would some of the string quartets, but overall I'd say I don't hear life experience in the work (which, of course, isn't Mozart's fault). The tragedy of Mozart is that he didn't move into old age - then he would have been much more interesting, IMO. The strange thing is that Schubert was younger when he died and yet his music is mature way way beyond his years; I wonder if this is a function of him having written lieder to highly poetic texts? Schubert's larger piano sonatas were, of course, influenced by Beethoven so this could be one of the reasons for his 'maturity' of style.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

No outrage; just pity.

[Tetrachord]

How can you say that when one has had the experience and actually moved on from it?