Is Haydn the new Beethoven?

[Beef Oven!]

Most of us living today were brought up on the belief that Beethoven is the guvnor. Something that I have never really questioned. However, I'm sensing something of a sea-change. Haydn seems to be the composer who more and more is being talked about in the highest of terms. This is palpable on this forum, for example. Much more talk about his string quartets these days and as for his symphonies, his are the ones that generate most interest.

Perhaps that's just the way it goes. In 200 years, the received opinion might be that Salieri is the be all and end all of classical music.

[pastoralguy]

In answer to your initial question Beefy, respectfully, no. (IMHO).

Yes, Haydn is a wonderful composer and contributed much to music in his development of the String Quartet and the Symphony as well as his sheer joy in experimentation of structure and harmony but, again in my extremely humble opinion, I think Beethoven took Haydn's 'pitch' to a different level. Beethoven consolidated Haydn's advances and made them his, and humanity's own. (I'm trying to express a PHD subject into a few short sentences!)

Hayden's big problem, imvho, is that because he wrote so much, he diluted his audience appeal. (It's much easier for an orchestra to mount a Beethoven symphony cycle as opposed to a Haydn symphony cycle...) And , Beethoven is great for putting bums on seats in a way that Haydn doesn't. (Haydn is VERY difficult to play!)

This from someone who is contemplating a Haydn Quartet listening cycle.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Beethoven still is the guvnor ... for me. But he's not a better/greater composer than Haydn (or a lesser one). When you get to this level of invention and imagination all that's left is personal preference.

I think we can talk more about Haydn these days because his work is more readily available, and in an astonishing array of excellent recordings. When you consider how little of this Music was known even to most professional Musicians before (at the earliest) the 1970s - it just makes me rejoice to be alive when there is such Music so easily available to everybody.

[Bryn]

Beethoven still is the guvnor ... for me. But he's not a better/greater composer than Haydn (or a lesser one). When you get to this level of invention and imagination all that's left is personal preference.

I think we can talk more about Haydn these days because his work is more readily available, and in an astonishing array of excellent recordings. When you consider how little of this Music was known even to most professional Musicians before (at the earliest) the 1970s - it just makes me rejoice to be alive when there is such Music so easily available to everybody.

I have to admit that I had never consciously listened to any of Haydn's non-wind-powered keyboard music until I heard John Tilbury play the F minor Variations Hob. XVII-6 in a concert mainly devoted to the music of Christian Wolff, at Conway Hall in the early '80s. That opened my ears to a whole panoply of keyboard music.

[pastoralguy]

Beethoven still is the guvnor ... for me. But he's not a better/greater composer than Haydn (or a lesser one). When you get to this level of invention and imagination all that's left is personal preference.

I think we can talk more about Haydn these days because his work is more readily available, and in an astonishing array of excellent recordings. When you consider how little of this Music was known even to most professional Musicians before (at the earliest) the 1970s - it just makes me rejoice to be alive when there is such Music so easily available to everybody.

[Richard Barrett]

Most of us living today were brought up on the belief that Beethoven is the guvnor.

Actually I was brought up on the belief that JS Bach is the guvnor, his work being so much on a different level from anyone else's that comparisons are pointless. (Kagel: "not many people believe in god any more, but every musician believes in Bach", which I've no doubt quoted before.)

But with that exception I don't believe in guvnors. As for Haydn and Beethoven, for me the quantity of Haydn's music is a point in its favour; as a body of work it has a breadth and depth which are quite awe-inspiring. I listen to Haydn more often than Beethoven and actually always have, and I don't like to see one artist as a forerunner of another. On the other hand when it's Beethoven that's wanted it has to be Beethoven.

[David-G]

(Haydn is VERY difficult to play!)

Thank you for that interesting observation! I am currently trying to play a Haydn sonata.

[jean]

I think we can talk more about Haydn these days because his work is more readily available, and in an astonishing array of excellent recordings...

But where are the live performances?

[ahinton]

I remember years ago John McCabe - no slouch in terms of putting Haydn on the map that he was already on but too many people seemed not to appreciate it - making the sardonic remark that there ought to be a temporary moratorium on Beethoven sonatas - but this surely originated from little more than his being understandably irked by the sheer lack of attention being given to Haydn at the time.

But no, Haydn's not the "new" anyone. Nor's Beethoven. Lots of good thoughts in this thread...

[Don Basilio]

What about Mozart? He is surely far better known to the Classic FM music lover than Haydn?

(Haydn may now be the Radio 3 composer of choice, but I may have missed something.)

[richardfinegold]

I think Ferney nailed it. Beethoven's Music has been available and accessible since recordings were first made and in performance. It did take his contemporaries a couple of generations to come to terms with their demand, but once mastered it was ubiquitous.
Haydn and Mozart went into relative eclipse as Beethoven and then the Romantics had their stars ascend. Once those Composers Music became overly familiar an interest was kindled to further explore their predecessors.
Haydn's symphonic output was like an iceberg, appreciated for a dozen or so works with the rest submerged. Dorati and others paved the way, then the Period Performers, and now exposure has gotten to the point where comparisons can be made

[cloughie]

I think Ferney nailed it. Beethoven's Music has been available and accessible since recordings were first made and in performance. It did take his contemporaries a couple of generations to come to terms with their demand, but once mastered it was ubiquitous.
Haydn and Mozart went into relative eclipse as Beethoven and then the Romantics had their stars ascend. Once those Composers Music became overly familiar an interest was kindled to further explore their predecessors.
Haydn's symphonic output was like an iceberg, appreciated for a dozen or so works with the rest submerged. Dorati and others paved the way, then the Period Performers, and now exposure has gotten to the point where comparisons can be made

Surely its all about evolution of music, and it would be inappropriate not take into account what Haydn learned from Bach or Beethoven from Haydn, but in Beethoven we saw an incredible evolution over nine symphonies which was probably greater than Haydn's over 104.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

in Beethoven we saw an incredible evolution over nine symphonies which was probably greater than Haydn's over 104.

Discuss.

(Without Haydn's evolution of the genre - and of the String Quartet and the Piano Sonata and the Piano Trio and the Mass - Beethoven and Mozart would have had much less fertile examples to base their own work upon. In addition to providing works of the very highest levels of achievement in all these genres, Haydn set examples of what these genres could do that fuelled the imaginations of subsequent masters.)

[David-G]

But where are the live performances?

In the last few weeks I have heard "The Seasons" with the LSO and Rattle at the Barbican, and "The Creation" with Barts Choir at the Festival Hall.

What are indeed lacking are opportunities to hear the great last six Masses.

[cloughie]

Discuss.

(Without Haydn's evolution of the genre - and of the String Quartet and the Piano Sonata and the Piano Trio and the Mass - Beethoven and Mozart would have had much less fertile examples to base their own work upon. In addition to providing works of the very highest levels of achievement in all these genres, Haydn set examples of what these genres could do that fuelled the imaginations of subsequent masters.)

I knew that having a lesser knowledge of the notes would get me into trouble and I did limit my comments to symphonies which is only tip of composer's outputs. Haydn's own evolution was an great base for anyone to work on. Roman Hofstetter found it irresistible