Imminent demise of the European Union Youth Orchestra..

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  • Lat-Literal
    Guest
    • Aug 2015
    • 6983

    French Frank - You asked about the psychology:

    For the record, the longer term position was this : Very pro Britain's membership in 1975. Reason? "We must never go to war in Europe again". I hadn't the slightest interest in the economic aspects. Totally indifferent to money then, just as I am today, unless I sense a need to oppose overt greed. Very pro ongoing membership until the fall of the Berlin Wall. Minor qualms then - barely assessed - before remaining very pro membership throughout the 1990s. Maastricht seemed like a lot of fuss about nothing. I should have scrutinized it more but didn't, not least because I was professionally focussed on and at the UN. But had I done so, I think my position would still have been the same. These were the Ashdown-by-default years given that Steel had gone and the SDP had imploded in civil war. Briefly, John Smith made Labour look like a viable alternative but I was never a full Labour man.

    The expansion east - with the incorporation of many more countries - in the early 2000s again brought minor qualms, briefly. Again, I didn't assess it as much as I could have done. One has to bear in mind that the entire mainstream was for our membership for decades. Opponents seemed out on a limb. And, of course, the Social Democrat Charles Kennedy had become the leader of the centre party - an individual who I felt especially able to endorse and he was very clear on his position. I trusted him at the time just as I agreed with him on Iraq. The wheels fell off the bus with the Orange Book and the emergence of Laws, Browne and Clegg. I just didn't agree with the economic direction, especially following recession.

    Before the 2010 General Election, I switched fully to voting for the Green Party with whom I had dabbled in minor elections. Their pro EU stance wasn't obvious then to me. Certainly I didn't know that it was rampant. Nor did it seem to matter at the time. But between 2010 and 2015 I increasingly drew links between the EU and the financial crash, seeing the latter as partially symptomatic of the EU's unhealthy relationship with bankers etc. People were also talking about the need for huge housing programmes to accommodate the additional numbers here. This led to the stronger development in my mind of a link between population size and the fragility of our environment. In parallel, I was concerned - and shocked - about the pace of social change in my borough which houses Lunar House. What it felt like, ironically, was an extension of America. Since the 1980s, I had always argued strongly in favour of immigration but only at a rate which was manageable and fair to everyone, existing citizens and immigrants alike. Of course, the terrorism concerns also weaved in and out.

    Perhaps about a year before the referendum, maybe a little longer, I took to Farage - before not taking at all to Farage - and then taking to him again. I remember the documentary with him taking viewers around the Brussels buildings and explaining the elaborate processes. Quite a lot of what he said rang true although that ringing was met with resistance. By then, I had been made redundant and while university educated the current elites were not me and in many ways I felt I was one of their victims. And that was not the easiest conclusion to make of one's identity. The thinking was very mixed. I also recall around that time a leaflet being put in my letterbox by one of his party and it was focussed on the constituency next door. Gleefully I ran out to tell them that they were on the wrong side of the border. The response was very offish. I was told it all amounted to the same thing.

    Then maybe about eight months before the referendum I decided to leap towards a position of us being better off leaving the EU. I know that the EU position on Ukraine which I had disagreed with vehemently was then uppermost in my thinking. The feeling was - and I was with Gerhard Schroeder on this matter although Peter Hitchens and George Galloway were also influential - that the institution when in cahoots with the United States had become too belligerent. Geopolitics suddenly seemed to mean a lot given that a policy of regime change ran counter to "we must never go to war in Europe again". About three months later, I was once again for our EU membership. It had been some time since Ukraine was regularly in the news. The racist elements among the genuine people for Brexit were making me very uneasy. And actually a lot of sentiment crept in. "This is crazy.....I am instinctively for Europe.....that is who I have always been". And that is the way in which I went into the campaign while knowing deep down that the way I felt about the arguments was not quite in line with my long-term identity. That identity just about survived until the referendum but after the result it went in favour of acceptance of a 21st Century reality.
    Last edited by Lat-Literal; 13-10-17, 18:44.

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    • Eine Alpensinfonie
      Host
      • Nov 2010
      • 20570

      Please can we stick to the topic, and avoid straying on to general Brexit issues.

      Comment

      • Lat-Literal
        Guest
        • Aug 2015
        • 6983

        Originally posted by french frank View Post
        "I don't want anyone to vote in this referendum on the basis of Turkey joining [the EU], because it’s not going to happen, just like the European army is not going to happen, or the 350 million isn’t true..." David Cameron, 19 June 2016

        Yes. Dismissed as much else was dismissed.

        It seems to me that the "EU side" was concerned about about our membership of the EU, not the possibility of a UKIP economic agenda. It was Philip Hammond, in January 2017, who brought up the 'tax haven' status for the UK - long after the referendum had taken place - as a post-Brexit possibility.
        Thank you for these comments which deserve the courtesy of a reply.

        Personally, I didn't believe in the imminent or even far away membership of Turkey or an imminent European Army although that is on the agenda of some, nor did I think that 350 million people were about to arrive at Heathrow or Dover. That figure, though, was accurate in terms of the numbers who would have the right to free movement. The dismissal of the Northern Ireland border and also any implications for the border with Scotland in any shape or form was very unfortunate and it mattered to me as someone who would prefer that independence wasn't chosen. Philip Hammond in my opinion is no more useful to this country than is Boris Johnson. The Prime Minister has the toughest political job since Churchill.

        Comment

        • french frank
          Administrator/Moderator
          • Feb 2007
          • 30284

          Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
          Please can we stick to the topic, and avoid straying on to general Brexit issues.
          Certainly can

          This is Italy's view of the news that they are to get the EUYO:

          It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

          Comment

          • Lat-Literal
            Guest
            • Aug 2015
            • 6983

            Originally posted by french frank View Post
            Certainly can

            This is Italy's view of the news that they are to get the EUYO:

            https://www.thelocal.it/20171011/eu-...om-uk-to-italy
            Just 13 British members!

            Is the EUYO atypical in this regard or are the numbers typical of the extent of rights for British people to take part in EU funded music projects?

            Comment

            • Barbirollians
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 11680

              Originally posted by Lat-Literal View Post
              Just 13 British members!

              Is the EUYO atypical in this regard or are the numbers typical of the extent of rights for British people to take part in EU funded music projects?
              Soon there will be none there are 28 EU countries - what proportion would be appropriate ?

              Comment

              • Lat-Literal
                Guest
                • Aug 2015
                • 6983

                Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post
                Soon there will be none there are 28 EU countries - what proportion would be appropriate ?
                13 out of 120 is not an inappropriate proportion.

                What the figure might also do is bring a sense of proportion to a scenario where getting on for 13 people have lamented its move from Britain and the loss of all the opportunities.

                It is surely not beyond all possibility for each orchestra in Britain to accept one or two extra people.

                Comment

                • french frank
                  Administrator/Moderator
                  • Feb 2007
                  • 30284

                  Originally posted by Lat-Literal View Post
                  Just 13 British members!
                  That's 11% of the total. There are 27 other member states and only 120 orchestra members in all.
                  It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                  Comment

                  • Lat-Literal
                    Guest
                    • Aug 2015
                    • 6983

                    Originally posted by french frank View Post
                    That's 11% of the total. There are 27 other member states and only 120 orchestra members in all.
                    Yes.

                    Comment

                    • french frank
                      Administrator/Moderator
                      • Feb 2007
                      • 30284

                      Originally posted by Lat-Literal View Post
                      It is surely not beyond all possibility for each orchestra in Britain to accept one or two extra people.
                      !!!

                      These are young players getting experience - and with some of the most distinguished international conductors. Are you perhaps trying to talk down its importance? And it's 13 members or so at any given moment.
                      It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                      Comment

                      • Lat-Literal
                        Guest
                        • Aug 2015
                        • 6983

                        Originally posted by french frank View Post
                        !!!

                        These are young players getting experience - and with some of the most distinguished international conductors. Are you perhaps trying to talk down its importance? And it's 13 members or so at any given moment.
                        No - but what I have been trying to do from the outset is get some idea of the broad numbers involved if the EUYO is symbolic of perceived problems with the policy.

                        I really thought that we were at least talking about hundreds of musical people, if not thousands. Maybe we still are - but I have yet to see statistics which show it.

                        Comment

                        • french frank
                          Administrator/Moderator
                          • Feb 2007
                          • 30284

                          Originally posted by Lat-Literal View Post
                          I really thought that we were at least talking about hundreds of musical people, if not thousands.
                          In the orchestra?
                          It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                          Comment

                          • Lat-Literal
                            Guest
                            • Aug 2015
                            • 6983

                            Originally posted by french frank View Post
                            In the orchestra?
                            No - the number of people who would be affected if we had no access to money from the EU’s ‘Creative Europe’ cultural funding programme of which the orchestra was or is a part.

                            The resurrection of this thread commenced:

                            - Orchestra now leaving UK: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ly-over-brexit

                            - No surprise - just another small example of the gross idiocy of Brexit.

                            Comment

                            • french frank
                              Administrator/Moderator
                              • Feb 2007
                              • 30284

                              Originally posted by Lat-Literal View Post
                              No - the number of people who would be affected if we had no access to money from the EU’s ‘Creative Europe’ cultural funding programme of which the orchestra was or is a part.
                              I don't know. A separate matter.
                              It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                              Comment

                              • Lat-Literal
                                Guest
                                • Aug 2015
                                • 6983

                                Originally posted by french frank View Post
                                I don't know. A separate matter.
                                No one knows.

                                All we know is that 13 British people will either move to Italy or sadly they won't.

                                Policy isn't geared to those numbers - 70 buildings will be demolished just for HS2.

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