Imminent demise of the European Union Youth Orchestra..

[french frank]

IDS claimed that he studied at the University of Perugia. The institution I have mentioned is where he actually studied.

No, he studied at the Università per Stranieri ("University for Foreigners") in Perugia, but didn't gain any qualifications.

I don't know quite what your experience was of the Sorbonne.

It was a special course for foreign students which formed an essential part of my UK degree. It was not a UK recognised qualification.

However, at the very least, modern language students traditionally have an additional year at a university abroad and mainly it is in the rest of Europe. That is very much a component of their university degree.

Yes. Modern languages, and the arrangements are made between individual universities. The Erasmus scheme is not limited to modern language students.

Surely the question that arises then is "who defines the need?"

My point was about pre-EU membership 'movement of people' , not students in particular. The original Gastarbeiter were industrial workers without qualifications. In which case the industries decided who they needed.

[gurnemanz]

At a time of ongoing despondency amid the daily worsening Brexit shambles the loss of the Youth Orchestra is especially sad.

[Conchis]

At a time of ongoing despondency amid the daily worsening Brexit shambles the loss of the Youth Orchestra is especially sad.

If you write to your Brexiting Tory (or Labour) MP in these terms, you'll get a response back saying, 'I'm sorry you have such little faith in the potential of our great country.'

[Conchis]

At a time of ongoing despondency amid the daily worsening Brexit shambles the loss of the Youth Orchestra is especially sad.

If you write to your Brexiting Tory (or Labour) MP in these terms, you'll get a response back saying, 'I'm sorry you have such little faith in the potential of our great country.'

[french frank]

At a time of ongoing despondency amid the daily worsening Brexit shambles the loss of the Youth Orchestra is especially sad.

And not just the loss of its base in the UK, but the loss of the UK young musicians' opportunity to participate.

[doversoul1]

And not just the loss of its base in the UK, but the loss of the UK young musicians' opportunity to participate.

… and the opportunity for the UK audience to hear them live will be greatly reduced if not disappear all together.

[Barbirollians]

We are heading for the rocks - Nigel says they are an illusion in fact it is calm open water , Boris says they are soft and spongy , Theresa knows they are rocks but we have voted to crash into them so we must , Jeremy tries to pretend he knew they were rocks but in fact he agrees with Nigel excerpt it is not calm open waters but socialist nirvana , the rest of the Labour Party knows and does not want to sail into the rocks but nobody quite knows how to admit it , the same applies to Tory Remainers and the Lib Dems know they are rocks but nobody is listening to them as they stood by as the country was steered into the rocks of austerity .

[Beef Oven!]

We are heading for the rocks - Nigel says they are an illusion in fact it is calm open water , Boris says they are soft and spongy , Theresa knows they are rocks but we have voted to crash into them so we must , Jeremy tries to pretend he knew they were rocks but in fact he agrees with Nigel excerpt it is not calm open waters but socialist nirvana , the rest of the Labour Party knows and does not want to sail into the rocks but nobody quite knows how to admit it , the same applies to Tory Remainers and the Lib Dems know they are rocks but nobody is listening to them as they stood by as the country was steered into the rocks of austerity .

Grow up.

[Conchis]

We are heading for the rocks - Nigel says they are an illusion in fact it is calm open water , Boris says they are soft and spongy , Theresa knows they are rocks but we have voted to crash into them so we must , Jeremy tries to pretend he knew they were rocks but in fact he agrees with Nigel excerpt it is not calm open waters but socialist nirvana , the rest of the Labour Party knows and does not want to sail into the rocks but nobody quite knows how to admit it , the same applies to Tory Remainers and the Lib Dems know they are rocks but nobody is listening to them as they stood by as the country was steered into the rocks of austerity .

Yep: perfectly put.

Frankly, I welcome the day when Britain is scooped up at a bargain price and becomes a vassal state of Germany. At least then we'll have a proper government.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Masturbatory accusations cannot be accepted as moving the discussion forward. I wouldn't wish any potential newbies to be frightened off the Forum - nor to lose any existing ones as a result of such mud-slinging.

[Lat-Literal]

No, he studied at the Università per Stranieri ("University for Foreigners") in Perugia, but didn't gain any qualifications.

It was a special course for foreign students which formed an essential part of my UK degree. It was not a UK recognised qualification.

Yes. Modern languages, and the arrangements are made between individual universities. The Erasmus scheme is not limited to modern language students.

My point was about pre-EU membership 'movement of people' , not students in particular. The original Gastarbeiter were industrial workers without qualifications. In which case the industries decided who they needed.

I think the "no" is intended to be heard as a "yes" as in "no, we agreed" for as I said and you have said IDS studied at the Università per Stranieri. I note your second point. Re three, I know that Erasmus goes wider. It accounts for 5% of university students in Europe. One way of considering the way in which it works is that it provides opportunities to British students and students in the other 27 member countries who might otherwise not have them. The other way of considering it is that while five non-EU countries also participate in its programme, a further 23 have limited access and all other countries in the world are able to participate in some Actions under Erasmus+ but only under certain circumstances, there is effectively a political ring-fencing of university places in the full programme by what one could call the United States of Europe. One that is not in sync with the outward looking British policy of offering university places to students from any part of the globe. Of the 55 countries with full or limited access to Erasmus, none is outside Europe or the Middle East.

Arguably, there is an irony here. One might have thought that the guaranteeing of places for home grown talent, be it British or European, would be mostly favoured by those who oppose EU membership while the opening up of programmes on a truly international basis would be more in line with pro-EU membership thinking. What appears to be happening here is the opposite. That is to say it is more Erasmus for us as the privileged peoples who do not live in China, India, Japan, Australia, the United States or Ghana. In contrast, the London based Chamber Orchestra of Europe which does not receive EU funding is truly global and it intends to remain in Britain. Also, the Berlin headquartered Mahler Chamber Orchestra, a "nomadic collective" of instrumentalists from across Europe - including the UK - who unite periodically on tours that span the world, has no intention of quitting the British market.

Additionally, there is a question about the extent of access British students actually do have to the best music institutions on the Continent. The Conservatoire de Paris accepts only 30 students from anywhere each year. Any access to the Hochschule für Musik Hanns Eisler was essentially only available to those who qualified for the Soviet Erasmus programme as it were until after the collapse of the Berlin Wall and its 2005 renovation. As for just 100 students accepted annually by the University of the Arts in Helsinki which incorporates the Sibelius Academy those arrive via Nordplus, FIRST, North-South-South, Fulbright and bilateral agreements as well as Erasmus so the number on Erasmus from anywhere, let alone Britain, is probably little above single figures. Simultaneously, most of the best European music colleges are in Britain itself and they always have been while, beyond places for the exceptionally talented, it is British charity based initiatives like Sistema Scotland which have tended to provide opportunities for the under-privileged. Few of these receive EU funding.

On point 4, yes, fine.

nb. It is possibly worth flagging up again here that I voted with a heavy heart to remain in the EU but if the referendum were held again tomorrow I would vote to leave it. My principal concern is not about university places but rather to have the flexibility to go beyond what is required of us via the EU by the most extreme and irresponsible global business interests and especially to protect the British countryside from the massive housing development that would be needed with no management of population numbers.

But what has really sent me into the other camp is the combination of EU intransigence in negotiations which has more than a little punishing air about it and the way in which the sheer existence of the EU appears increasingly to be pushing Europeans towards a borderline fascism. AfD - and there are many other examples. In France, for example, Macron is here today and will be gone tomorrow. It is clear who is waiting in the wings. I also think we just have to move forward now with some positivity - it helps to have actual facts!

[french frank]

I think the "no" is intended to be heard as a "yes" as in "no, we agreed" for as I said and you have said IDS studied at the Università per Stranieri.

Correct.

But I don't have any intention of continuing a debate about why people voted as they did in the referendum. I have a Facebook page on which I self indulgently rant daily about the subject. No need to inflict that (and the retaliations) on people here.

[Lat-Literal]

Correct.

But I don't have any intention of continuing a debate about why people voted as they did in the referendum. I have a Facebook page on which I self indulgently rant daily about the subject. No need to inflict that (and the retaliations) on people here.

Yes, fine - but as I have indicated where music opportunities are not currently available in EU, it would be interesting to hear from someone about where they are if they are.

[gurnemanz]

But what has really sent me into the other camp is the combination of EU intransigence in negotiations which has more than a little punishing air about it and the way in which the sheer existence of the EU appears increasingly to be pushing Europeans towards a borderline fascism. AfD - and there are many other examples. In France, for example, Macron is here today and will be gone tomorrow. It is clear who is waiting in the wings. I also think we just have to move forward now with some positivity - it helps to have actual facts!

Oh dear. I'm sad enough already about the state of our country and reading the above makes me feel even worse. I could hardly believe that "EU intransigence" was being trotted out as a serious point. Who caused this unnecessary, time- and energy-wasting confrontation? I know there are good leftwing and anti-bureacracy reasons for being against the EU but for the most part it was the primitive nationalism of UKIP and rightwing tabloids that whipped up propaganda against Europe as a scapegoat for voters to blame for deficiencies in their life. I have heard the view expressed from France that it was the cautionary examples of Brexit and Trump that actually deterred many French voters from going down a similar road.

I'm 68 and and have always liked being English but have never been more depressed about my country. I'm afraid I cannot summon up very much "positivity" about the future. It seems the best they can offer is bodging and blustering away in an attempt to make the best of a bad job. I'm off to Germany again tomorrow visiting my wife's family for a few days (Ryanair willing) and am dreading having to spend half the time discussing the Brexit fiasco. I have spent all my working life as an English teacher in Germany and German teacher in England trying to foster better relations with our European neighbours. All this is being thrown out (along with the Youth Orchestra) as part of a futile quest for some vague kind of "national sovereignty", which, even if definable or desirable, is certainly not achievable, especially not by the mediocre politicians currently in charge, led by a PM who still can't say that she actually believes that the policy she is implementing is in the best interests of our country. With anti-European feelings rife, I probably wouldn't even have a job as language teacher nowadays with language teaching rapidly losing critical mass in schools and universities and probably in terminal decline. I met an old A Level student of mine the other day who could no longer find full-time work as a German teacher and has retrained to teach English.

My German-born wife, having long ago let her German passport lapse, has been British since 1976 and been quite happy as such - - until now being told she is not a European citizen after all. She applied for a German passport a year ago. So heavy is the demand for German citizenship from the UK (we were told that applications increased from 30 a week to 30 a day after the referendum) that we have still not had the application processed. It is not only the EU members of the Youth Orchestra who will be quitting UK. Our children (now mid thirties) who were brought up bilingually and in a pro-European spirit are also deeply disappointed with the prevailing mood (like most of their age group) and also want to apply for German citizenship.

Please excuse the rant. I took the dangled bait and will now go back to tending my garden.

[vinteuil]

Please excuse the rant. I took the dangled bait and will now go back to tending my garden.

... not only excused, but welcomed. Well, I welcome it - because it chimes so totally with how I feel. And not just because I feel that so many of my years working for the Foreign Service have been flushed down the drain - but more when I look at my very Europe-focused step-children, beneficiaries of Erasmus and the like, whose future reception as 'Europeans' is seriously tarnished.

.