Musical adjectives

[Ferretfancy]

Most of the music of Karl Amadeus Hartmann is pretty gloomy, I would have thought. It certainly doesn't act as a tonic.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Listening to BAL on Haydn Qiuartet G major Op 77 no 1 today, the reviewer made a comment on one excerpt about "sadness", yet as I was listening it never occurred to me that it was sad, but "merely" very beautiful and calm. Other people try to persuade us that music has characteristics which it may not "really" possess.

... or that it "really" possesses for the people making the comments (and who may well be unaware that they are "trying to persuade" anyone of anything). This is precisely why attempts to describe Music with verbal metaphors is of limited use or value. But, without adequate technical vocabulary ("Sorry - I was on holiday in Florida when they did the appoggiatura"), how else are people to discuss it?

Lots of comments about how difficult Haydn's life was (his relationship or lack of with his wife) not being reflected in his music too. Why do reviewers and critics have to assume that there should be an obvious connection?

This is a hangover from Romantic Egoism - it is assumed that Art is somehow "self-expression", and has to be in order to be "profound". If anyone points out that this might be as ridiculous as suggesting that you can see that a Joiner's joy at the birth of his/her daughter in the way s/he aligns a set of shelves, this is usually seen as an attempt to "debunk" the idea of "Great Art" (rather than - as is really happening - a way of moving from the autobiographical to focus on the glories of the Art itself).

[Dave2002]

... or that it "really" possesses for the people making the comments (and who may well be unaware that they are "trying to persuade" anyone of anything). This is precisely why attempts to describe Music with verbal metaphors is of limited use or value.

I will accept that the reviewer heard sadness in her listening to the work, but that does not mean that it is an adjective to be universally applied. Conversely though, avoiding the use of adjectives wouldn't be wholly appropriate either. Both she and I would surely agree that the music in question was not loud, grim, gloomy, bombastic etc., so in that sense using descriptive words can be helpful - it helps to "locate" the mood of a piece, but not necessarily precisely, and some listeners will find other ways of describing any piece.

BAL reviewers should not assume that everyone will feel the same moods or emotions, or that indeed a recording/performance which in the reviewer's opinion does express a particular mood will be appreciated by others who may not wish to have/experience those moods/emotions.

OTOH, it might be better to use descriptive language rather than purely technical (I can think of one BAL reviewer who goes to the other extreme ...) - here "the piece goes into D flat minor, and time signatiure changes for 2 bars into 7/8, though the listener will hear this as 3,3,4(over the bar line) 2,2 against 2,3,2, 3,2,2 in the accompaniment which is in B major ....)"

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think that you're right about the need to avoid assuming that the emotions that we feel subjectively about a work of Art are somehow what everyone else will also feel - for me, it is one of the most annoying aspects of R3 continuity announcements ("a truly radiant sense of joy" - we can decide that for ourselves; tell me when it was written!) It's also a "naturally" "human" assumption, though - as I keep having to remind myself!

As for "the other extreme" - I wouldn't call the example you gave at all "extreme"; the technical language to be found on "The Techie Board" on the Forum is often complete gobbledigook to my untutored eye, but I'm sure it's absolutely essential for all those in the know - and far more useful than using subjective descriptions in place of such language.

[Dave2002]

.....
the technical language to be found on "The Techie Board" on the Forum is often complete gobbledigook to my untutored eye, but I'm sure it's absolutely essential for all those in the know - and far more useful than using subjective descriptions in place of such language. ..

oh ...yuk.

As in X computers are better than Y computers. The Yellow cabinets are brilliant.

Also, how does using a Brand X computer "make you feel?"
For goodness sake, keep (some) arts people away from anything to do with science and computing.

e.g How does Einstein's Theory of General Relativity make you feel? - though in truth I'd still have to answer "confused". This is about as inane as some of the questions posed to young competitors in a music competition.

As for "the other extreme" - I wouldn't call the example you gave at all "extreme" ...

It was a pretty artificial example. Why would that have been interesting anyway?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It was a pretty artificial example. Why would that have been interesting anyway?

Not so much "interesting" as "useful", in that reading the words, I can imagine the sounds. In a BaL, though, it would be superfluous, as the sounds I can imagine would presumably be demonstrated in an excerpt from a recording - those who can hear these technical details as the extract is played won't need to have them pointed out in the way that your example suggested - those who do not have the technical vocabulary will be none the wiser for such a description.


It has occurred to me that in my descriptions of the Opera North Ring productions, I have been making much use (or even "overuse") of metaphor and adjective, which seems to contradict the general stance and opinion I have been forwarding on this Thread. I think that in those posts, I have been attempting not so much to describe the Music as describe the effect on me that these individual performances have had on me. As I think I've said here, as a means of general social communication, descriptive language seems often to be the most useful to use.

[Serial_Apologist]

Also, how does using a Brand X computer "make you feel?"

"How does knowing you have prostate cancer make you feel?"

"It makes me feel very glad that the medical boffins who use a lot of technical language I don't understand are starting to find ways of curing this terrible condition!"

[Dave2002]

Not so much "interesting" as "useful", in that reading the words, I can imagine the sounds.

I'd be interested to see your transcript of the couple of bars I mentioned!