Musical adjectives

[teamsaint]

I wasn't suggesting that
more that (and i'm rushing so apologies for short reply) talking about "musical adjectives" is probably more about language than music.

Quite.

( Not Fight !)

we tend , I think, to have an assumption that our spoken language will always do the job , and sometimes we find, for whatever reason, it has limits, or perhaps more importantly,unexplored possibilities.

[Serial_Apologist]

In spite of what some say
Music isn't a "language"

I was going on something John Surman once said about music consisting of different dialects. Perhaps that's a better way of putting it - he was talking about collaborating with musicians from disciplines other than his own, and different cultures.

[Serial_Apologist]

I didn't say it was.
I'm not sure if you are suggesting that I was saying that, though.

I'm the one to blame!

[Serial_Apologist]

Quite.

( Not Fight !)

we tend , I think, to have an assumption that our spoken language will always do the job , and sometimes we find, for whatever reason, it has limits, or perhaps more importantly,unexplored possibilities.

It's that Zen conundrum of how far language can be pushed in exploring expressive possibilities, or is its use primarily functional, and only by subverting that functionality from within can it be made to point outwards? The paradox principle? For what it's worth so-called civilisations would not have come about without words. There are many routes to understanding - the person who finds the Higgs Boson particle equivalent for bringing them together in one universal principle will probably solve all humanity's problems, or at least preset the conditions to that end.

[ahinton]

Fight, fight, fight, fight ....

Those are not adjectives, as of course you know, although their repetition here might arguably be taken to be suggestive of a certain particular kind of music...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Trying to describe music with words is presumably as tricky as trying to describe words with music.

or maths with words.......or .....or.....

Or words with (other) words, come to that.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Not that I want to start an argument or anything.


Flight, flight, flight, flight ...

[ahinton]

Not that I want to start an argument or anything.


Flight, flight, flight, flight ...

Bumble-bee, bumble-bee, bumble-bee, bumble-bee...

..which reminds me of the words that Ogden Nash once set to the opening music (trying so hard to stay more or less on topic here) of the fugue that concludes the Brahms Handel Variations, namely
"I saw a bee
Upon a wall,
And all it did was buzz
And all it did was buzz..."

[Richard Barrett]

As a student I was trained to write drily factual scientific accounts of experiments - one of the profs in fact stipulated that one shouldn't use any adjective that could just be replaced by "bloody". Some years later, during my time writing reviews for The Wire, I was admonished to use as many colourful adjectives as possible. Nowadays I try to be creative but disciplined. I think reading or hearing a few well-chosen words can make quite a (positive) difference to the way music is perceived. Or to whether one thinks it's worth listening to at all. That's why it's a valuable thing to do, despite the obvious difficulties.

[EdgeleyRob]

Gloomy music,the first thing that comes into my mind is the opening of Weinberg's String Quartet No 10.
It is gloomy,but also beautiful and haunting.

[teamsaint]

As a student I was trained to write drily factual scientific accounts of experiments - one of the profs in fact stipulated that one shouldn't use any adjective that could just be replaced by "bloody". Some years later, during my time writing reviews for The Wire, I was admonished to use as many colourful adjectives as possible. Nowadays I try to be creative but disciplined. I think reading or hearing a few well-chosen words can make quite a (positive) difference to the way music is perceived. Or to whether one thinks it's worth listening to at all. That's why it's a valuable thing to do, despite the obvious difficulties.

And why giving pieces of music interesting titles can be useful/ important.
Although these days, everybody does it, so perhaps the effect is diminished somewhat.

I like Takemitsu's titles as much as any.

[Richard Barrett]

I like Takemitsu's titles as much as any.

'Twas then I knew it was wind

[teamsaint]

'Twas then I knew it was wind

TBF, the fusion of Avant garde music and end of the pier comedy that he pioneered and perfected is a winner.

[Dave2002]

While I appreciate some of the more philosophical points, I had rather hoped that at least some of the discussion would focus on perceived emotional values by listeners, and maybe some examples. It may be the case that there would be disagreements or different values put on some pieces, but for others thare might be a consensus.

For example, Mars from the Planets (first part at least) could be violent, relentless, unyielding, maybe strident. Could anyone really consider it to be happy, relaxed, peaceful?

The second part could be brooding, unsetttling.

Now consider some other music, such as Mozart's clarinet concerto - 2nd movement. What words could at least attempt to describe that? Cheerful - probably not.

Some music may be so abstract as to defy any emotional associations. We could argue that all music is abstract, but some would probably disagree.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think you're absolutely right to say that there is some Music that has the intention and result of evoking a single, definite mood in the listener - there wouldn't/couldn't be Incidental Music or film "background" Music if this were not so. But this is usually the sort of Music that least engages and interests me: the simple sequence of moods presented in The Planets I find enjoyable, but it's not Music - until the finale - that fascinates me. And how would you describe the "emotion" of Neptune?

The second movement of Mozart's Clarinet Concerto is a very different kettle of fish: why "probably not 'cheerful'"? Certainly a different kind of jolly from that of the Rondo Finale, but is the slow movement "sad"? I don't hear it in such a way - I do hear a melancholy there; a sense of regret; but there's also great joy, and gratitude and love mingling and caressing in that Movement - in such a way that the no single adjective will approximate; it's simultaneously shifting and constant. (And the same can be said of a work with a very different idea of melody and harmony; the slow movement of Debussy's String Quartet. And I realize that this is entirely subjective to me as I hear such works today.)

What I'm attempting to say can probably best be illustrated by birdsong - something that occurred to me when I heard a blackbird singing for the first time this year. This is for me simultaneously heartbreaking and indescribably joyful. It's been a life constant: I remember first noticing it when a kid, and I remember how the sound seemed to sum up the hopes and ideas that I then had for my future life. Now it reminds me of those hopes, and causes me to reflect on what I'd expected and what has actually happened. It's a powerfully evocative sound; but why the song of the Blackbird is more important to me than that of the Wren or Songthrush or whatever - I have no idea. And, of course, Blackbirds have no "idea" of the effect of their "song" on me - all they're "thinking" is "Come on, darlin' - you know you want to!"

Which is, I think, the point of Stravinsky's comment that "Music is powerless to express anything other than itself". What we make of it when it achieves the rich ambivalence of the Mozart, is up to us - and this alters as we do. That's part of the reason why the Arts are so important - not just as "entertainment", but as part of our self-knowledge: defining who we are to ourselves and helping us place ourselves in relation to the rest of the world.