BBC Young Musician 2016

[MrGongGong]

No, not 'other genres don't'. It isn't Moorean to point out that that doesn't mean NO other genres have depth and complexity - she indicated that some DO. Some do, some don't.

Pedants corner?

The way I read this

All music-making is certainly beneficial, but western art music demonstrates a complexity and depth which few other musical genres have attained.

Implies that Western Art Music is somehow superior and special in it's complexity and depth.
Now, I don't know her so don't know BUT in my experience those who have an understanding of musics in a more global sense wouldn't make a claim like this.

She also says this

To play it and appreciate it requires skill, devotion and understanding, which is why such long training is necessary.

Is this not true for MUSIC?

and reading it again

This bit

It is hard to understand why classical music is such a scapegoat when other heritage art forms continue to be widely supported.

Erm "classical music" is more supported in funding terms than any other music.

Like I said, its great to have discussions about this (and I find it interesting to read about a musician I met when he was about 7 and just starting out playing the cello) but discussions are not always helped by ill informed comments.

[Tapiola]

Pedants corner?

No. Accuracy Corner.

[MrGongGong]

No. Accuracy Corner.

Conspiracy digest

[MrGongGong]

No. Accuracy Corner.

If you want accuracy she could have said

All music-making is certainly beneficial, western art music demonstrates a complexity and depth which is shared by many other global musical genres.

But that wouldn't make her point about "Classical Music"!

[Tapiola]

Conspiracy digest

I'm afraid it sounds more like Axegrinders Unanimous to me...

[Richard Barrett]

It's nevertheless true that there are a lot of people around for whom "western classical music" has a depth and complexity lacking in most or all other musics, which is of course a rather shallow and simplistic way to think. The more I find out about more musical cultures the more it becomes clear to me that all have depth and complexity, just as there is no spoken language on earth which is not able to articulate anything its speaker might need to say. The problem is to see this "depth and complexity" as something quantitative, and for this quantity to be measured implicitly by looking at whether a particular music is more or less like WCM (and from a point of view of knowing much more about the latter than about any others), which is obviously going to lead to certain conclusions. So I think MrGG is quite right in strongly suspecting that such assumptions lie behind Susan Tomes' statement.

[Tapiola]

It's nevertheless true that there are a lot of people around for whom "western classical music" has a depth and complexity lacking in most or all other musics, which is of course a rather shallow and simplistic way to think. The more I find out about more musical cultures the more it becomes clear to me that all have depth and complexity, just as there is no spoken language on earth which is not able to articulate anything its speaker might need to say. The problem is to see this "depth and complexity" as something quantitative, and for this quantity to be measured implicitly by looking at whether a particular music is more or less like WCM (and from a point of view of knowing much more about the latter than about any others), which is obviously going to lead to certain conclusions. So I think MrGG is quite right in strongly suspecting that such assumptions lie behind Susan Tomes' statement.

I can't disagree with any of this Richard, and I speak as a lover of many non WCM genres. Comparative value-judgements are unhelpful and irrelevant. Just a pity, imho, that axe-grinding can get in the way of fair and accurate representation of what has actually been written or said.

[teamsaint]

If I was trying to convince somebody who wasn't acquainted with it, that Western Classical Music was worth giving a go, I don't think I would start with statements about complexity and depth.

I think I would probably start by trying to demonstrate where this music meets with other music that they might know.

But perhaps that isn't the best approach, and it's not my job. But I do have conversations with other music enthusiasts about music, and this seems a fruitful approach in every day conversations.

[Richard Barrett]

I think I would probably start by trying to demonstrate where this music meets with other music that they might know.

I think that's absolutely right, rather than going round saying (or even thinking!) "this is somehow better than what you're into".

Unless they're into banjo music of course, then don't waste your breath.

[MrGongGong]

I used the word "unique"
sorry about that
I felt it was implied by what was said

[MrGongGong]

I think that's absolutely right, rather than going round saying (or even thinking!) "this is somehow better than what you're into".

Unless they're into banjo music of course, then don't waste your breath.

Nothing wrong with a bit of banjo matey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFFhLexwgIA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Ao-iNPPUc

[ardcarp]

Moving on, this is certainly true:

To play it [Western Art Music] and appreciate it requires skill, devotion and understanding

All children need to be given the chance to appreciate it and develop some understanding of its wonders and, yes its complexity. Otherwise it will be seen more and more as a niche preoccupation.

[ahinton]

It's nevertheless true that there are a lot of people around for whom "western classical music" has a depth and complexity lacking in most or all other musics, which is of course a rather shallow and simplistic way to think. The more I find out about more musical cultures the more it becomes clear to me that all have depth and complexity, just as there is no spoken language on earth which is not able to articulate anything its speaker might need to say. The problem is to see this "depth and complexity" as something quantitative, and for this quantity to be measured implicitly by looking at whether a particular music is more or less like WCM (and from a point of view of knowing much more about the latter than about any others), which is obviously going to lead to certain conclusions. So I think MrGG is quite right in strongly suspecting that such assumptions lie behind Susan Tomes' statement.

Indeed; the problem here appears to arise not merely from a general narrow-mindedness but from a more specific obduracy that encourages an unwillingness to engage with the possibility that other musics' depths and complexities are (as indeed they must and should be) entirely different to, rather than less than, those of "Western Classical Music". Whether it could reasonably be argued that the gulf between the simplicities and the complexities of Western Classical Music might be greater than that between other musics is an open question and not really quite the same issue in any case.

[jean]

We haven't really identified what other musics we, and Susan Tomes might be talking about.

I don't think she's thinking of the complexities of Indian music, say, so much as comparing Young Musician of the Year with something like Britain's Got Talent.

(Is it all right to say that?)

[jean]

If I was trying to convince somebody who wasn't acquainted with it, that Western Classical Music was worth giving a go, I don't think I would start with statements about complexity and depth.

She isn't doing that though, is she? She's talking to Guardian readers.