BBC Young Musician 2016

[ardcarp]

Yes, wasn't it Anthony Baines (writing at a time when it was virtually impossible to find any cornett players at all) who suggested that soprano sax was the best substitute?

I didn't know that! Was it mentioned in one of his books? It was Don Smithers, the only cornettist we could find c1968/9, who suggested the idea to me. I wonder who tried it out first!

[ostuni]

Yes, in Woodwind Instruments and their History, 1957 (p.263): 'the usual substitute for the cornett is the trumpet, though the oboe has also been tried, while a soprano saxophone is perhaps best of all'. Ah yes, Don Smithers: a formidable character! I remember getting outstandingly drunk with him in the Hague, some time in the late 70s (when he was flat-sharing with a good friend of mine). As you may recall, he had a glass eye, and when he needed to underline a point, he'd take it out and bang it on the table...

[Hornspieler]

What's the view (of HS and others) about Herr Damm's performance? Because I think it's dammed good!!

In 1965, the BSO toured throughout some of the iron curtain countries and gave two concerts in the Gewandhaus in Leipzig as part of the celebrations for the 800th anniversary of the founding of the city.
After the second concert, the members of the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra invited us all to a grand dinner in the Opera House.

All the sections sat with their German counterparts so our six hornists sat with Peter Damm and his horn section. A great time was had by all, so naturally, when the Leipzig orchestra toured in England, we invited all of them to a dinner in the Highcliffe Hotel to repay the complement but, further still, I invited Peter Damm and his section to lunch at my house, where we gave them an English Luncheon of Roast Beef and Yorkshire pudding followed a selection of desserts.

Our guests tucked in enthusiastically (they'd been spending most of their subsistence allowances buying goodies to take home to their families and they must have been eating their first proper meals for days!)

Peter Damm spoke reasonably good English and I could get by in German (just about) so we exchanged a lot of views about playing (and teaching) methods and the subject of vibrato soon entered the discussion.

The thing was, that all the Eastern European Countries emulated that heavy Russian vibrato (try some of those early Czech Philharmonic recordings at that time) and, of course, so did the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra.

I don't know whether the fall of the Iron Curtain and the subsequent exchanges of visiting conductors and soloists had an effect but, magically that heavy vibrato of the Russian orchestras gradually faded away and, listening to Gergiev and his Majinsky orchestra these days, they sound much more like our own orchestras*, whose sound over the years has become heavier in comparison with, say, the nineteen fifties.

I like vibrato. I hate string players not using it at all (for historical accuracy - what about accurate intonation?) but I do accept that a lot of French music benefits from a suggestion of delicate use.

Anyway, to return to the subject, Peter Damm was trained to play the horn at a time when vibrato was considered mandatory for both instrumentalists and vocalists and his musicianship is unquestionable.

* for me, the only trace of Russian vibrato that is still apparent is Gergiev's waggling fingers and waving cocktail stick

HS

[ardcarp]

Yes, in Woodwind Instruments and their History, 1957 (p.263): 'the usual substitute for the cornett is the trumpet, though the oboe has also been tried, while a soprano saxophone is perhaps best of all'. Ah yes, Don Smithers: a formidable character! I remember getting outstandingly drunk with him in the Hague, some time in the late 70s (when he was flat-sharing with a good friend of mine). As you may recall, he had a glass eye, and when he needed to underline a point, he'd take it out and bang it on the table...

Thanks! He never banged his glass eye at us and his knowledge and advice was invaluable in those pioneering days of Monteverdi's Vespers*...especially as we were patching in quite a lot of stuff that Denis Stevens left out of his 1961 edition.

* Yes I know it had been done by loads of people before...including Nadia Boulanger with the piano.

[BBMmk2]

I think people should listen to what brass bands are playing these days and how they are playing the music!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think people should listen to what brass bands are playing these days and how they are playing the music!

Well - it's eighteen months since I last heard the Black Dyke Band, Bbm, but then there was a fair bit of vibrato in some of the slower Music, and the (IIRC) 17-year-old prizewinning cornet player also gave some wobble on sustained notes. Very attractively, I thought; it didn't saturate the whole programme.

[BBMmk2]

Maybe being involved, haven't noticed! But, the recent CD's I have bought, don't seem to have much of this vibrato?

[french frank]

Good riposte from the excellent Susan Tomes (she who memorably raged at the BBC's trivialising presentation of Young Musician a few years back):

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/may/20/its-not-posh-to-like-classical-music

'as music education focuses more and more on having a go rather than mastering a skill' … ???

[MrGongGong]

Good riposte from the excellent Susan Tomes (she who memorably raged at the BBC's trivialising presentation of Young Musician a few years back):

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/may/20/its-not-posh-to-like-classical-music

'as music education focuses more and more on having a go rather than mastering a skill' … ???

Indeed it is good to see the issues discussed
BUT

I can't let this go unchallenged

All music-making is certainly beneficial, but western art music demonstrates a complexity and depth which few other musical genres have attained.

Which is utter nonsense.
I could make a list but it would be a rather long one.

Western Art Music is one of the great inventions of human beings BUT it's NOT uniquely "complex" or "deep" by any stretch of the imagination no matter how much one might love it (and many of us DO love it dearly).

Music needs passionate advocates NOT these kind of sweeping statements which betray an ignorance and lack of understanding of music as a global phenomena.

[french frank]

Western Art Music is one of the great inventions of human beings BUT it's NOT uniquely "complex" or "deep" by any stretch of the imagination no matter how much one might love it (and many of us DO love it dearly).

She doesn't say that, does she? Why have you paraphrased (inaccurately) what she said?

[MrGongGong]

She doesn't say that, does she? Why have you paraphrased (inaccurately) what she said?

She said

All music-making is certainly beneficial, but western art music demonstrates a complexity and depth which few other musical genres have attained.

which is what I quoted

and it's NOT true art all

She does use the words "complexity" and "depth" , so unless this is some kind of legal pedantic issue (and slipping into linguistic analysis again!) I thought what I said was fair.
There are many folks who DO think Western Art Music is some kind of Uniquely special thing in the universe and without comparison or parallels.

[jean]

There's a difference between saying something has few parallels, and saying it is unique, which would mean that it has none.

[french frank]

You introduced the word 'uniquely' which I set in bold to draw your attention to. She said, 'which few others have attained'.

There are many folks who DO think Western Art Music is some kind of Uniquely special thing in the universe and without comparison or parallels.

You are no doubt correct in saying that. But she didn't say it. She was barely concerned with 'other genres': she was writing about other people's attitudes to 'western art music ' in the sense of 'western classical music'.

[MrGongGong]

There's a difference between saying something has few parallels, and saying it is unique, which would mean that it has none.

OK OK OK

Loose the word "unique" (can't edit it anyway)
It's still nonsense

THIS BIT

All music-making is certainly beneficial, but western art music demonstrates a complexity and depth which few other musical genres have attained.

Which (to my "didn't do literacy hour and i'm not a lawyer so use language in a less than precise way but seem to be mostly understood" brain) implies IMV (and i'm stressing that I'm ONLY SPEAKING FOR MYSELF) that other genres don't have "complexity" or "depth"....

IS that ok ?

Most of what she says is spot on BUT (again IMV) it's ruined by this.

[french frank]

Which (to my "didn't do literacy hour and i'm not a lawyer so use language in a less than precise way but seem to be mostly understood" brain) implies IMV (and i'm stressing that I'm ONLY SPEAKING FOR MYSELF) that other genres don't have "complexity" or "depth"....

IS that ok ?

No, not 'other genres don't'. It isn't Moorean to point out that that doesn't mean NO other genres have depth and complexity - she indicated that some DO. Some do, some don't.