John Williams at the BBC

[Lat-Literal]

Decades ago when I bought "Aranjuez" I chose Bream.

He seemed to be the solid serious choice. At that time, Williams was dabbling in light entertainment, not that I have anything at all against it. I just wanted an unequivocally classical person for a classical record. Actually I do like Cleo Laine. I thought her collaboration with Williams was ok, eg Jobim's "Wave", but I didn't like Sky. Also, I know that Williams can't help his appearance but he was all a bit too "someone on the golf course" for me. Maybe even a bit preppy. Bream looks more like a classical guitarist. And, yes, ditto Segovia but there was a time lag there. Williams was my era, Bream was the one before and Segovia was the one before the one before and also seemingly a little severe.

I'm still for Bream but am more inclined these days to listen to Segovia because he was the first and because of his nationality. I suppose that also arises via interests in others from his country - the flamenco of de Lucia and de la Isla. I think of Segovia as less predictable. Bream is the one with panache whereas Williams is the one with an emphasis on precision. But I can like them all for the significant contributions they have made to music. I also very much like Narciso Yepes who hasn't as yet been mentioned on this thread.

[Richard Tarleton]

As for the programme being 'garbage', surely not? It was Williams at the BBC and it did have to have a wider appeal than to a small cabal of guitar purists.

My point, in more restrained language , was that given what is available to them in the BBC archive they could have made better choices. Had they cut down on the Cavatinas, for example, replaced one of the tremolo pieces, altered the balance with the Saturday night family entertainment shows (Sykes, Mouskouri, Doonican AND Dawson) - for example cut the Mouskouri (dreadful), and the Doonican duet (embarrassing).... Perhaps they didn't show the Previn guitar concerto because they showed it the other day in the Previn programme.....

Why should a programme about a great classical guitarist just be for a small cabal of purists? Pappano's programme about mezzo-sopranos was (presumably) not only only for a small cabal of mezzo-soprano purists, or the recent pianist and violinist progs likewise. Or the progs on Bernstein, and Previn, at the BBC. This is the station that in the past has given us the Christopher Nupen doc on Segovia, docs on Julian Bream, Julian Bream's 6-parter on the guitar in Spain......Mind you those were in the heyday of the classical guitar in the 70s and 80s, as Tom McKinney reminded us in his survey of JW's discography the other day it's settled down a bit since then.

BTW, a big thank-you to Sir Velo for the link to the Seville Concert documentary - now that is worth watching again.

[vinteuil]

.... I also very much like Narciso Yepes who hasn't as yet been mentioned on this thread.

... also not mentioned, I think, two of my favourites - Alexandre Lagoya and Ida Presti

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_Lagoya

.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Presti

[Richard Tarleton]

... also not mentioned, I think, two of my favourites - Alexandre Lagoya and Ida Presti

Quite - an incomparable duo, their studio recordings from 1956-63 have recently been released in 3 CDs on IDIS 6654, 6656 and 6694, see Amazon. The very opposite, as a duo, to Bream and Williams - whereas they were (as Bream said) two very different guitarists who happened to play well together, Presti and Lagoya lived and breathed as one. Had she not devoted herself entirely to life as a duo she could have given the generation after Segovia a run for their money as a soloist. Sadly there is only some very grainy footage on You Tube. I had a single, unsuccessful lesson from a teacher who knew Presti well, not long after Presti's sad death.

An anecdote, told in one of the sleeve notes, by composer John Duarte:

They had a profound sense of unity, probably made possible by the fact that Presti possessed a mysterious sixth sense, which made itself evident during the intermission of a concert the duo gave at Wigmore Hall....Sitting back to back, each of them was speaking to different people, neither one having any apparent means of communication with the other. Then suddenly, they stopped speaking and as though they were following an invisible conductor - they both started playing a very difficult passage from one of the pieces in the programme, perfectly together. After a quarter of a century, I still never figured out how they did it! Such things aren't rare with twins, but between husband and wife they are certainly unusual.... It was a musical marriage truly arranged in Heaven.

[vinteuil]

Quite - an incomparable duo, their studio recordings from 1956-63 have recently been released in 3 CDs on IDIS 6654, 6656 and 6694, see Amazon. :

... as well as the 6 CD set on decca -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0002IRXZ0

[Lat-Literal]

... also not mentioned, I think, two of my favourites - Alexandre Lagoya and Ida Presti

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_Lagoya

.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Presti

Thank you very much for these.

[Cornet IV]

JW was more of a Glenn Gould (I feel) it being technically virtuosic.

I would suggest Rosalyn Tureck as a better comparison; at least JW didn't hum!

I am not particularly enamoured of the instrument but I did enjoy the broadcast. However, whilst acknowledging the guitar's provenance, I thought the content bias towards the Iberian a little strong for a programme presumably intended for a general audience. And in this regard agree with those who consider Williams's playing lacking warmth.

At least watching this offering was vastly more pleasurable than having to endure the facile tripe served up by the self-promoting Pappano which followed.

[Richard Tarleton]

I thought the content bias towards the Iberian a little strong for a programme presumably intended for a general audience. And in this regard agree with those who consider Williams's playing lacking warmth.

There is a certain Hispanic bias in the classical guitar repertoire . It's descended from Spanish plucked instruments, and much of the repertoire up to the 20th century is by Spanish (and Italian) composers. This didn't stop the guitar's worldwide popularity, from the (Spanish) Segovia onwards! Obviously the broadening of the repertoire became a major preoccupation - as well as the plundering of the early and baroque repertoires (only the briefest glimpse in this programme of a very young JW playing Bach), Bream commissioned works from contemporary (non-Hispanic) composers, while JW went down the crossover route. The Concierto de Aranjuez is one of the most popular pieces of the last century, so it clearly has plenty of appeal to a general audience - and those pieces by Albeniz and Tárrega, the stuff JW played on the Sykes and Dawson shows, were evidently exactly what the audience of those family shows expected.

[CallMePaul]

Decades ago when I bought "Aranjuez" I chose Bream.

You couldn't have chosen Segovia. The concerto was written for him but he was unable to return to Spain from a South American tour to give the premiere, due to the later stages of the Civil War (Segovia was apolitical and definitely not a refugee - he lived in Spain throughout the Franco era). A substitute was found and Segovia was so offended that the performance was not postponed until he was able to return to Spain that he refused to play the concerto and it was only when offered Fantasia para un gentilhombre that he made upo with Ropdrigo.

A biut off topic I know, but worth pointing out.

[Lat-Literal]

You couldn't have chosen Segovia. The concerto was written for him but he was unable to return to Spain from a South American tour to give the premiere, due to the later stages of the Civil War (Segovia was apolitical and definitely not a refugee - he lived in Spain throughout the Franco era). A substitute was found and Segovia was so offended that the performance was not postponed until he was able to return to Spain that he refused to play the concerto and it was only when offered Fantasia para un gentilhombre that he made upo with Ropdrigo.

A biut off topic I know, but worth pointing out.

Very interesting.

Many thanks.

There is a certain Hispanic bias in the classical guitar repertoire . It's descended from Spanish plucked instruments, and much of the repertoire up to the 20th century is by Spanish (and Italian) composers. This didn't stop the guitar's worldwide popularity, from the (Spanish) Segovia onwards! Obviously the broadening of the repertoire became a major preoccupation - as well as the plundering of the early and baroque repertoires (only the briefest glimpse in this programme of a very young JW playing Bach), Bream commissioned works from contemporary (non-Hispanic) composers, while JW went down the crossover route. The Concierto de Aranjuez is one of the most popular pieces of the last century, so it clearly has plenty of appeal to a general audience - and those pieces by Albeniz and Tárrega, the stuff JW played on the Sykes and Dawson shows, were evidently exactly what the audience of those family shows expected.

I didn't see the programme, RT.

Was the Tarrega piece the Romance that might not have been by Tarrega?

[Richard Tarleton]

You couldn't have chosen Segovia. The concerto was written for him

Paul, what's your source for its having been written for Segovia? It was dedicated to Regino Sainz de la Maza, who gave the first performance and subsequently recorded it (his very creditable recording was played on Radio 3 only last year) and acc. to Graham Wade's biog of Segovia, the latter "had nothing to do with the genesis or establishment of Rodrigo's new work and was never to be associated with it". Segovia was actually living in S America (Uruguay), and working on the Ponce concerto at the time.

[Cornet IV]

[QUOTE=Richard Tarleton;549323]There is a certain Hispanic bias in the classical guitar repertoire . It's descended from Spanish plucked instruments, and much of the repertoire up to the 20th century is by Spanish (and Italian) composers. QUOTE]

Well, I did know that. Very many years ago, I played the instrument in what must have been a parody of Flamenco styles at the Troubadour in SW5 and was thought sufficiently accomplished to accompany Ron Hitchens and Trader Faulkner when they visited this once remarkable establishment. So I'm not wholly ignorant of the guitar genre. I just felt that in this programme, Williams failed to capture much of the emotional/gitano essence of the Spanish inclusions, of which, in my view, there were too many considering the wealth of alternative material available to him.

[Richard Tarleton]

Well, I did know that. Very many years ago, I played the instrument in what must have been a parody of Flamenco styles at the Troubadour in SW5 and was thought sufficiently accomplished to accompany Ron Hitchens and Trader Faulkner when they visited this once remarkable establishment. So I'm not wholly ignorant of the guitar genre.

humble apologies, I think I misinderstood you.

I just felt that in this programme, Williams failed to capture much of the emotional/gitano essence of the Spanish inclusions, of which, in my view, there were too many considering the wealth of alternative material available to him.

Yes, one wonders who made the selections.

In the other (excellent) documentary in Sir Velo's post there's a nice scene where he's round at his friend Paco Peña's flat in London and trying to work out how to make Albeniz's Sevilla a bit more idiomatic....Paco sets up a compas, tapping his fingernails on his golpeadores.....

[Nick Armstrong]

humble apologies, I think I misinderstood you.

I too would never have guessed at Comet IV's guitaristic accomplishments from the rather detached

I am not particularly enamoured of the instrument

[Cornet IV]

[QUOTE=Richard Tarleton;549466] humble apologies, I think I misinderstood you. QUOTE]

Thank you for the courtesy, Richard but such really wasn't necessary. As Caliban has noted, my history could not have been divined from the "not enamoured" comment, so in looking back, a degree of misunderstanding seems inevitable.

Whilst I used to enjoy playing the instrument, almost invariably in the company of players/dancers, I have never much cared for the "serious" (cante jondo etc.) side of the instrumental repertoire; I have not owned any recordings of guitar music for a very long time and lack most of the interest once had. In any event, it is clear that my knowledge of the subject is inferior to your own - I'm obliged to you for the Sir Velo reference. For a moment I thought this had to do with single-cylinder motorcycles!

However, these days, I would feel more comfortable discussing the back work of Stedman Triples . . . . . . . .