Furtwangler and Mahler

[Barbirollians]

I have always wondered why WF did not take up Mahler - I know he regarded the Mahler 6 as nihilist but his conducting of the Lieder eine fahrenden Gesellen with the young DFD is Mahler conducting of a rare quality .

Anyone know ?

[Conchis]

Not totally sure but I think I can recall reading somewhere that he wasn't convinced of the 'quality' of the large-scale works. There would have been very limited opportunity for him to perform them, anyway, during the 'purple patch' of his career. F's tastes were known to be somewhat conservative, anyway....

[gurnemanz]

I Googled around a bit. In an interview for a German magazine Barenboim, a great admirer of Furtwängler, comments that Mahler was widely regarded as "cheap music" and being Jewish didn't help. Apparently he did conduct Mahler's Third. He points to conductors who didn't do both Mahler and Bruckner. Celibidache didn't do Mahler. Bernstein didn't do Bruckner - except the Ninth. Barenboim recalls asking Bernstein why he didn't conduct Bruckner. He commented that apart from the Ninth the rest are worthless. To illustrate his point Bernstein then sat down at the piano and played virtually the whole of the first movement of the Eighth from memory, pointing out what he didn't like as he went along!

[Barbirollians]

Thanks gurnemanz - very informative .

[Ferretfancy]

I Googled around a bit. In an interview for a German magazine Barenboim, a great admirer of Furtwängler, comments that Mahler was widely regarded as "cheap music" and being Jewish didn't help. Apparently he did conduct Mahler's Third. He points to conductors who didn't do both Mahler and Bruckner. Celibidache didn't do Mahler. Bernstein didn't do Bruckner - except the Ninth. Barenboim recalls asking Bernstein why he didn't conduct Bruckner. He commented that apart from the Ninth the rest are worthless. To illustrate his point Bernstein then sat down at the piano and played virtually the whole of the first movement of the Eighth from memory, pointing out what he didn't like as he went along!

"Strange how potent cheap music is." ( Noel Coward, Private Lives )

[makropulos]

I have always wondered why WF did not take up Mahler - I know he regarded the Mahler 6 as nihilist but his conducting of the Lieder eine fahrenden Gesellen with the young DFD is Mahler conducting of a rare quality .

Anyone know ?

What makes you think he didn't take up Mahler? A glance at the online Furtwängler concert listing by René Trémine reveals the following:

9 November 1912: Kindertotenlieder (Marya Freund)
27 February 1915: Various songs with WF at the piano (Lula Mysz-Gmeiner)
21 November 1916: Das Lied von der Erde (Ottilie Metzger, Max Lippmann)
19 February 1918: Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen (Waldemar Seligmann)
3 October 1918: 3 Songs (D. Reinhardt)
30 November 1918: Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen (Hans Duhan)
20 January 1919: Symphony No. 4 (Elfriede Müller)
29 November 1919: Symphony No. 3 (Hermine Kittel)
18 April 1920: Symphony No. 3 (Hermine Kittel - postponed from February when WF was ill)
16 & 17 March 1921: Symphony No. 2 (Mina Lefler, Hermine Kittel)
29/30 September 1921: Symphony No. 1
31 October 1921: Symphony No. 1 (with the Berlin Philharmonic)

So I don't really buy the idea that he didn't do Mahler - he conducted Symphonies 1, 2, 3 and 4, Das Lied von der Erde and song cycles. What's intriguing is why he stopped conducting Mahler after the early 1920s.

[pastoralguy]

What's intriguing is why he stopped conducting Mahler after the early 1920s.

I suspect the rise of Hitler and the Nazis had something to do with it.

I just wish I knew more about what it must have been like to be an artist in those terrible times.

[Conchis]

I suspect the rise of Hitler and the Nazis had something to do with it.

I just wish I knew more about what it must have been like to be an artist in those terrible times.

Most commentators I've read seem agreed that Furtwangler was, among other things, a notably vain man.

He may have been a great conductor but - like many great artists - there was a side to him that inclined to the shallow. His position and reputation meant a great deal to him; and - here some of us might be able to sympathise - nothing meant more to him than practising his art. It was this that, I think, led so many great artists, not just musicians, to make compromises with Nazi/fascist regimes in the inter-war years.

Of course, things weren't as clear to the people of those times as they are to us now. I tend to cut people like Furtwangler, Strauss, etc quite a bit of slack, because I've never had to live or work under a fascist government.

[Barbirollians]

I suspect the rise of Hitler and the Nazis had something to do with it.

I just wish I knew more about what it must have been like to be an artist in those terrible times.

Hitler might explain matters post 1933 but surely not post 1921 years before the Beer Hall Putsch .Why did he then return to conduct the lieder for DFD so beautifully but nothing else ?

[Conchis]

Hitler might explain matters post 1933 but surely not post 1921 years before the Beer Hall Putsch .Why did he then return to conduct the lieder for DFD so beautifully but nothing else ?

The Lieder were recorded in 'spare time' left after the Tristan sessions had been completed ahead of schedule. I think this was the occasion when Furtwangler dismissed Legge as his producer (he still nursed a grudge against him for his patronage of 'that man K' and for recording Zauberflote (F's favourite opera) under Karajan) and requested Lawrence Collingwood instead. The work might have been suggested by Collingwood or DFD (or both) as being suitable for the timespan of the session. Pure speculation, but not impossible.

[Barbirollians]

The Lieder were recorded in 'spare time' left after the Tristan sessions had been completed ahead of schedule. I think this was the occasion when Furtwangler dismissed Legge as his producer (he still nursed a grudge against him for his patronage of 'that man K' and for recording Zauberflote (F's favourite opera) under Karajan) and requested Lawrence Collingwood instead. The work might have been suggested by Collingwood or DFD (or both) as being suitable for the timespan of the session. Pure speculation, but not impossible.

Possible but again Nazism cannot explain F abandoning Mahler for 12 years before Hitler came to power.

Also if Furtwangler had not conducted it for 30 years doubtful he would have just picked up the score and got on with it .

[slarty]

The Lieder were recorded in 'spare time' left after the Tristan sessions had been completed ahead of schedule. I think this was the occasion when Furtwangler dismissed Legge as his producer (he still nursed a grudge against him for his patronage of 'that man K' and for recording Zauberflote (F's favourite opera) under Karajan) and requested Lawrence Collingwood instead. The work might have been suggested by Collingwood or DFD (or both) as being suitable for the timespan of the session. Pure speculation, but not impossible.

Fischer-Dieskau had already performed the Lieder with Furtwängler at the 1951 Salzburg Festival. (The programme included Bruckner Sym 5,) so it was probably not such an unknown quantity for all concerned, he also conducted it in Vienna around this time with Alfred Poell as soloist.

[richardfinegold]

What makes you think he didn't take up Mahler? A glance at the online Furtwängler concert listing by René Trémine reveals the following:

9 November 1912: Kindertotenlieder (Marya Freund)
27 February 1915: Various songs with WF at the piano (Lula Mysz-Gmeiner)
21 November 1916: Das Lied von der Erde (Ottilie Metzger, Max Lippmann)
19 February 1918: Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen (Waldemar Seligmann)
3 October 1918: 3 Songs (D. Reinhardt)
30 November 1918: Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen (Hans Duhan)
20 January 1919: Symphony No. 4 (Elfriede Müller)
29 November 1919: Symphony No. 3 (Hermine Kittel)
18 April 1920: Symphony No. 3 (Hermine Kittel - postponed from February when WF was ill)
16 & 17 March 1921: Symphony No. 2 (Mina Lefler, Hermine Kittel)
29/30 September 1921: Symphony No. 1
31 October 1921: Symphony No. 1 (with the Berlin Philharmonic)

So I don't really buy the idea that he didn't do Mahler - he conducted Symphonies 1, 2, 3 and 4, Das Lied von der Erde and song cycles. What's intriguing is why he stopped conducting Mahler after the early 1920s.

That is intriguing, because I had read that the only Mahler he had ever programmed was for the FD recording

[makropulos]

That is intriguing, because I had read that the only Mahler he had ever programmed was for the FD recording

Yes - that particular myth has been around for quite a long time - and I suppose it's understandable because all of this Mahler was so early in WF's career.

[Stanfordian]

I have always wondered why WF did not take up Mahler - I know he regarded the Mahler 6 as nihilist but his conducting of the Lieder eine fahrenden Gesellen with the young DFD is Mahler conducting of a rare quality .

Anyone know ?

Hiya Barbirollians,

According to his discography (Hunt) Furtwangler did play some Mahler e.g. Das Lied von der Erde, some Lieder, Kindertotenlieder, Sym's 1, 2, 3 & 4. He recorded Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen. But quite soon after Mahler's death say the late 1920s his music was virtually forgotten. In the mid 1930s the ban on Jewish music was the nail in the coffin for Mahler for some time.