David Bowie RIP

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Welcome back - and thanks for what you write here.

Hello again to you too, hope you'll stay for a while. Thanks also for what you've written.

[cloughie]

Hello again.

I don't really care too much about self-reinvention, image-creation, stardom, hero-worship and the rest of it. Not do I care much about whether music is classified as "pop" or "classical" or whatever, or how many or how few people listen to this music or that.

Music for me is about sound, about the unity of emotion and intelligence, about form, about pushing envelopes, about indelible experiences, about astonishment, about discovering unsuspected beauties of shared humanity through originality, and many other things but those will do for now. In all of these areas David Bowie's music is a pinnacle as far as I'm concerned, and it has been for more than forty years, and no doubt it always will be.

Last autumn, for some reason, after my interest in his work had been rekindling for a year or two, I felt impelled to listen through his entire recorded output, and it seemed to me that very few bodies of artistic work are on a comparable level of achievement. There are maybe three albums out of almost thirty that contain nothing I would want to revisit, and others I know every corner of and will never get to the bottom of however many times I might explore them.

Richard, your first paragraph strikes chords of agreement with my views on music.
Had I been a few years younger Bowie may have had a bigger impact on me but the sixties influences from The Beatles, Prog Rock, Blues, Folk and Folk Rock, Jazz, Classical et al had left their marks on me. Come to think of it these were the base of Bowie's evolution. ...and it was evolution not re-invention!

[Ian Thumwood]

Just listened to Low. Never my favourite Bowie album but certainly one of his most important and ground-breaking.

His death is a huge media event. There's been nothing like it in terms of scope and impact since John Lennon's death in 1980, although that was even more shocking and unexpected.

It gives you an insight into how McCartney and Dylan (the last two major stars from the golden age of rock - I don't count Jagger and Richards) will be mourned when they depart....

I totally disagree with this statement. For my money, The Beatles are hugely over-rated and largely relied upon George Martin to tailor their efforts in to something more "musical." Listening to an earlier Beatles track on the radio this week, I was taken aback by just how poor it was especially the bass lines and drumming.

There is a tendency for white people to totally disregard to achievement of black artists and this post is, I'm afraid , typical of this. Culturally I can appreciate the reference to John Lennon but his demise is no more tragic or more significance of someone like Michael Jackson or Witney Houston whose talent was as a genuine musician as opposed to a "cultural icon." This is setting aside the likes of B B King or Ornette Coleman who have also passed away within the last 12 months. I can appreciate why Bowie might have been held in such high esteem but black popular music shaped the 20th century and what white pop artists have produced are generally the crumbs left by the more significant and worthy Afro-American artists.

To take nothing away from Bowie or indeed McCartney or Dylan, I don't think any of these are quite of the calibre of Prince, Steve Wonder, etc let alone the likes of Marvin Gaye.

[teamsaint]

this might be an interesting discussion, but on another thread maybe?

just as a comment on post #108 though, IMO the two greatest rock and roll musicians ( 50's rock n roll) were . by a country mile, Chuck Berry and Buddy Holly.

[Richard Barrett]

To take nothing away from Bowie or indeed McCartney or Dylan, I don't think any of these are quite of the calibre of Prince, Steve Wonder, etc let alone the likes of Marvin Gaye.

To suggest that there is some innate racial difference in quality of musicianship in either direction could be described as racist, don't you think? since it is so obviously untrue whichever "side" you take. But as teamsaint says, that's another conversation entirely.

[johncorrigan]

IMO the two greatest rock and roll musicians ( 50's rock n roll) were . by a country mile, Chuck Berry and Buddy Holly.

Little Richard and Elvis for me, ts. (Don't know about the country mile mind you cos Chuck and Jerry Lee would be just behind). (50s rock'n'roll I mean)

[teamsaint]

Little Richard and Elvis for me, ts. (Don't know about the country mile mind you cos Chuck and Jerry Lee would be just behind). (50s rock'n'roll I mean)

the point still holds, JC.

( how much did Little Richard write, just to save me googling it? as performers, I'm sure you are correct though)

[Ian Thumwood]

To suggest that there is some innate racial difference in quality of musicianship in either direction could be described as racist, don't you think? since it is so obviously untrue whichever "side" you take. But as teamsaint says, that's another conversation entirely.

Richard

Welcome back.

To suggest that the superiority of black popular music is a racist statement is ridiculous just as it would be to say that 19th Century Classical music was dominated by white Europeans is accurate. My point was that the previous statement alluded to the fact that only white popular artists mattered whereas black popular culture shaped 20th century music including rock and Classical music too for that matter.

I would not take anything away from Bowie yet the "British invasion" must have come as a shock in the 1960's when so much of American popular music at the time was undoubtedly superior to the whole guitar-led thing. In the contest of so much British rock, Bowie was obviously something well beyond the concept of his predecessors yet , as innovative as he might seem, it could be construed to being far less advanced as anything in black popular culture had produced in the previous decades with the likes of Ellington, Coleman Hawkins, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, etc and , discounting Modern Jazz if you wish, on through the likes of Stax and Motown and on to Michael Jackson and Prince.

In white pop music, there have only been a handful of acts who probably match Bowie for originality - I would include the like of Kate Bush and Bjork in that. However, as much as you rightly applaud Bowie for his originality and desire to be different, black artists have pursued the same agenda for over 100 years in popular music and have also done this with a greater degree of musical savvy. Indeed, apart from the originality of "Life on mars," it is the recording Bowie made with Niles Rodgers that I would consider to be his most musically satisfying effort. What is intriguing is just how close the better pop acts lean towards jazz even if it wasn't quite so apparent at the time. Check out Prince's "Sign of the times" which was played on the radio last night. Too close for jazz on daytime radio, perhaps?

[Beef Oven!]

Little Richard and Elvis for me, ts. (Don't know about the country mile mind you cos Chuck and Jerry Lee would be just behind). (50s rock'n'roll I mean)

Little Richard & Buddy Holly, for me!

(sorry Ian, one black and one white there!)

P.S. teamsaint, start the new thread!

[Richard Barrett]

the superiority of black popular music (...) undoubtedly superior (...) far less advanced (...) a greater degree of musical savvy

See, this is the problem, all of these "facts" which are nothing but statements of personal preference. You are obviously looking for very different things in music compared with most admirers of DB's music, who would for example regard the Nile Rodgers-produced Let's Dance as an overcommercialised low point in his output. And of course this was not the only or the most important collaboration between DB and non-white musicians: Luther Vandross, Dennis Davis, Carlos Alomar, George Murray, Sterling Campbell, Gail Ann Dorsey etc. etc. all of whom made crucial inputs to the music especially on account of his MO which often consisted of arriving at the sessions with almost nothing and building up the songs through variously directed improvisation. As for jazz, his final album Blackstar is suffused with it.

[johncorrigan]

the point still holds, JC.

( how much did Little Richard write, just to save me googling it? as performers, I'm sure you are correct though)

Well I know he wrote 'Lucille', ts, because he said there was no way Pat Boone was going to be wrap his tongue round that - that after Boone covered 'Tutti Frutti'.

[Gabriel Jackson]

Indeed, apart from the originality of "Life on mars," it is the recording Bowie made with Niles Rodgers that I would consider to be his most musically satisfying effort.

Nile Rodgers produced two David Bowie albums. Let's Dance is glossy, slick, commercialised pop/rock, and I would agree with Richard that it is one of his least satisfying records. It is also, the title track possibly excepted, a record that has very little RnB input, for all that Nile Rodgers was a very successful and talented disco-soul artist and producer. The second Nile Rodgers production, Black tie, white noise is an altogether richer, more complex and more satisfying album.

[muzzer]

Bowie of course was a big fan of Little Richard and Elvis. And in many ways their heir.

[Beef Oven!]

Bowie of course was a big fan of Little Richard and Elvis. And in many ways their heir.

Elvis' was too greasy, but I love the way Little Richard got his to stand up strait, well before Don King did it

[doversoul1]

Elvis' was too greasy, ...

Ah yes. I see you are too young to know Bye Bye Birdie