David Bowie RIP

[Ian Thumwood]

The issues relating to Bowie's significance and the adulation of the media are salient, I think. It is interesting how the expectations of pop music are lower allowing someone like Bowie to appear to be a visionary whereas I don't think he was quite on a par with the importance of Pierre Boulez or Paul Bley. The media attention has, I am sure ( tried to avoid it) looked at the cultural significance of Bowie whereas I think there has been a real lack of genuine , informed discussion regarding the dots on the page. This would make the appraisal more interesting. There has also been no discussion regarding the tracks on the LP's that were not realised as singles. How good were these? Someone did comment that his album "Tin machine" was not a success and that was about as critical as the analysis came.

It is interesting to hear pop acts perform live and have certain "artists" either meet your expectations or confirm your expectations. A number of "commercial" pop acts have materialised at the jazz festival in Vienne. The likes of Chic, Earth , Wind and fire , Al Green, Cyndi Lauper and Sting have really surprised me as these are genuinely switched on musicians , capable of improvisation and not leading polished outfits, often featuring jazz musicians in their ranks. It would have been interesting to see if Bowie would have fallen in to this category. On the other hand, I've caught the likes of Joe Cocker and Seal, both of whom I felt to be pretty feeble. I would therefore not write off some artists and would consider that those who have lasted must have a degree of talent.

[Beef Oven!]

This interview (in 2000...) is extraordinary, for me. Particularly from 6' 20" onwards, DB's predictions 15 years ago about the internet, and its impact on society and art, are phenomenal. Fascinating also that he says that, if he were 19 years old at that point, he probably wouldn't have become a musician but rather a music collector/listener...

I remember this interview, but cannot recall a word of it!

Having just watched it, it's clear that Bowie is totally switched on to where the internet and music/art is/wa going, and Jeremy isn't quite grasping it!

Obviously being so switched on to social/technological/musical phenomena, is part of Bowie's artistic success.

[Beef Oven!]

As important a historical moment as the performance of the Leningrad Symphony we were all discussing not too long ago IMV

[Stunsworth]

Stephen Hough and his love of Bowie...

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jan/11/stephen-hough-david-bowie-filled-my-time-as-i-wasted-my-time?CMP=share_btn_tw

[MrGongGong]

whereas I think there has been a real lack of genuine , informed discussion regarding the dots on the page. .

If you are referring to the music and what it sounds like?
I would have to disagree, what was interesting to me on my travels today was how on the radio (4 mostly) there was much talk about his collaborators (Eno, Fripp etc) and how the music was a result of 'guided collaboration'.

If folks want to parade their ignorance of music they don't like i'm sure there are plenty of other places to do that IMV

[Ian Thumwood]

If you are referring to the music and what it sounds like?

I would have liked to have seen some proper appreciation. There is an understanding of quite intriguing harmony in some of the tunes and I would want to know whether this was of Bowie's making or someone else. It would appear from another post that some of the arrangements were done by Mike Ronson who I know nothing about. I am aware that he collaborated with Nile Rodgers yet I am wondering to what expect each participated. If you are going to describe someone as a genius or musical visionary you need to explain why. I felt that this was done really well with Pierre Boulez on "Front Row", for example where his musical language was more fully explained. Similarly, there has been a lot of informed obituaries for Paul Bley. Both musicians are certainly more significant from a musical perspective but maybe David Bowie was worth more analysis that 99%of pop acts even if he music lacked the genuine merits of Bley or Boulez. Why shouldn't pop music be subject to a more vigorous analysis? Judging by the comment about "guided collaboration", this suggests that he might have needed the input of others in order to express his ideas. As I said, too much of the criticism is regarding his cultural impact. This has no interest for me whereas the musical element is. There was an interview given by Jamie Cullum of all people with Kate Bush which I felt was revealing as the lead-sheet to something like "This woman' world" employed bars with different time signatures such as you might find in some 20th Century Classical music or contemporary jazz. I felt that this demonstrated a degree of sophistication but was intrigued to learn that this was, in fact, something achieved by accident rather than my design to be "progressive. As a rule criticism of pop music is pretty lame and the tributes I have heard today have tended to fall short of what you should expect from someone who had pretentions of being taken seriously and, in the context of pop music, endeavoured to be more challenging. I am not a fan yet the media coverage has tended to be pretty low brow and undemanding in it's assessment in my opinion as was the case with Michael Jackson. There are occasions, I feel, where pop music should be considered by journalists with a bit more about them or at least be musicians.

[MrGongGong]

Judging by the comment about "guided collaboration", this suggests that he might have needed the input of others in order to express his ideas. .

Like in "Jazz" you mean?
Music (with some exceptions ) is a collaborative art.
I'm not Jazz head but those who are talk endlessly about the input of others to the work of the artist on the cover of the recording.

[french frank]

Following a second complaint I have again deleted posts which some members feel out of keeping with the spirit of this particular thread, together with most posts that include quotes. If there is anything people want to get off their chests, please start a different thread. The reason for deletions is that if contentious posts remain the thread descends into arguments.

Tribute threads for someone who has recently died should be reserved for tributes to that person.

[Ian Thumwood]

Like in "Jazz" you mean?
Music (with some exceptions ) is a collaborative art.
I'm not Jazz head but those who are talk endlessly about the input of others to the work of the artist on the cover of the recording.

I am interested in how Bowie managed to get the sounds he heard in his head when he conceived the tunes in to manuscript / lead sheets for his musicians to play. How much of what he played owed to others assisting in the realisation of the concept. In jazz there is often a collaborative approach but most musicians are able to articulate their music in to arrangements and are increasingly able to dictate how a score needs to be orchestrated. You never read about this process in pop music or art least regarding anyone other than George Martin and The Beatles who didn't have the technical prowess or musical skills to fully articulate their ideas.

[muzzer]

I am interested in how Bowie managed to get the sounds he heard in his head when he conceived the tunes in to manuscript / lead sheets for his musicians to play. How much of what he played owed to others assisting in the realisation of the concept. In jazz there is often a collaborative approach but most musicians are able to articulate their music in to arrangements and are increasingly able to dictate how a score needs to be orchestrated. You never read about this process in pop music or art least regarding anyone other than George Martin and The Beatles who didn't have the technical prowess or musical skills to fully articulate their ideas.

I see him as being like Miles, although he was clearly never an instrumental virtuoso, in that he was always looking for the next big thing, was easily bored, and liked getting in collaborators to see what he could create with them, often pretty frenetically. I also think it's very much part of the history of 'pop/rock' music that after the Beatles had done their thing in the studio it wasn't clear what was next. Bowie is unique in that his work spanned several art-forms. He loved theatre and the visual arts and he brought all of that to what he did musically, and he left behind and discarded what no longer interested him, whilst reserving the right to dig it up again if he wanted to. He was, dare I say it on here, his own gesamtkunstwerk.....

[MrGongGong]

I am interested in how Bowie managed to get the sounds he heard in his head when he conceived the tunes in to manuscript / lead sheets for his musicians to play. How much of what he played owed to others assisting in the realisation of the concept. In jazz there is often a collaborative approach but most musicians are able to articulate their music in to arrangements and are increasingly able to dictate how a score needs to be orchestrated. You never read about this process in pop music or art least regarding anyone other than George Martin and The Beatles who didn't have the technical prowess or musical skills to fully articulate their ideas.

Why do you assume that the process was one of imagining sounds (what could be called "Phonomnesis") that haven't been heard and writing lead sheets or manuscript? There are many other ways of devising/composing/creating music.

YOU might not read about the processes but maybe you are looking in the wrong place?.... try looking for things about Eno and process (loads of stuff about) or Beefheart etc

[Barbirollians]

I would have liked to have seen some proper appreciation. There is an understanding of quite intriguing harmony in some of the tunes and I would want to know whether this was of Bowie's making or someone else. It would appear from another post that some of the arrangements were done by Mike Ronson who I know nothing about. I am aware that he collaborated with Nile Rodgers yet I am wondering to what expect each participated. If you are going to describe someone as a genius or musical visionary you need to explain why. I felt that this was done really well with Pierre Boulez on "Front Row", for example where his musical language was more fully explained. Similarly, there has been a lot of informed obituaries for Paul Bley. Both musicians are certainly more significant from a musical perspective but maybe David Bowie was worth more analysis that 99%of pop acts even if he music lacked the genuine merits of Bley or Boulez. Why shouldn't pop music be subject to a more vigorous analysis? Judging by the comment about "guided collaboration", this suggests that he might have needed the input of others in order to express his ideas. As I said, too much of the criticism is regarding his cultural impact. This has no interest for me whereas the musical element is. There was an interview given by Jamie Cullum of all people with Kate Bush which I felt was revealing as the lead-sheet to something like "This woman' world" employed bars with different time signatures such as you might find in some 20th Century Classical music or contemporary jazz. I felt that this demonstrated a degree of sophistication but was intrigued to learn that this was, in fact, something achieved by accident rather than my design to be "progressive. As a rule criticism of pop music is pretty lame and the tributes I have heard today have tended to fall short of what you should expect from someone who had pretentions of being taken seriously and, in the context of pop music, endeavoured to be more challenging. I am not a fan yet the media coverage has tended to be pretty low brow and undemanding in it's assessment in my opinion as was the case with Michael Jackson. There are occasions, I feel, where pop music should be considered by journalists with a bit more about them or at least be musicians.

Mick Ronson was the legendary guitarist who he sang with on Starman , and draped his arm around to shock the nation ,and collaborated with on many of his albums. Mick Ronson died young of apparently the same cancer as Bowie ( liver ) in 1993 .

[Conchis]

Mick Ronson was the legendary guitarist who he sang with on Starman , and draped his arm around to shock the nation ,and collaborated with on many of his albums. Mick Ronson died young of apparently the same cancer as Bowie ( liver ) in 1993 .

I was too young to have seen it but that TOTP clip had a HUGE influence on so many people - not so much the song (though that was great, too) as Bowie's sheer weirdness and unabashed androgyny; and everyone remembers him draping his arm around Mick Ronson (who was a totally straight, beer-drinking bloke from Hull - as was Bowie, apparently, although not from Hull). Me - I wonder what happened to the kid in the tank-top doing the embarrassing dancing: wonder what he's doing today and whether he gets a royalty cheque whenever the clip is shown?

[Beef Oven!]

I was too young to have seen it but that TOTP clip had a HUGE influence on so many people - not so much the song (though that was great, too) as Bowie's sheer weirdness and unabashed androgyny; and everyone remembers him draping his arm around Mick Ronson (who was a totally straight, beer-drinking bloke from Hull - as was Bowie, apparently, although not from Hull). Me - I wonder what happened to the kid in the tank-top doing the embarrassing dancing: wonder what he's doing today and whether he gets a royalty cheque whenever the clip is shown?

Wasn't my first sight of Bowie, but I remember that episode of TOTP very well. My sister had already bought the single, so it was already a familiar song in my house.

[kernelbogey]

I am interested in how Bowie managed to get the sounds he heard in his head when he conceived the tunes in to manuscript / lead sheets for his musicians to play. How much of what he played owed to others assisting in the realisation of the concept. In jazz there is often a collaborative approach but most musicians are able to articulate their music in to arrangements and are increasingly able to dictate how a score needs to be orchestrated. You never read about this process in pop music or art least regarding anyone other than George Martin and The Beatles who didn't have the technical prowess or musical skills to fully articulate their ideas.

Someone, perhaps one of his producers, or a fellow musician, said on the radio that Bowie would come into the studio with a demo tape with the basis of his idea for the track. The musicans and technicians would then work colaboratively on the song to get the result he wanted.