The Help Page

[Guest]

I drop in and out of this forum according to whim or events, so if you've ever heard a shy cough from behind the shadows…

Everyone seems so expert with loadsa degrees, playing experience and musical literacy — though a negligible set of prejudices — that I am encouraged to ask for some help. If not here, where?

This morning, on Sunday Morning, RC played the Janacek Sinfonietta by a band I've never heard, of on original instruments. RC made much play of the impact of the contemporaneous instruments, notably the brass.

I've spent over 40 years getting my head round gargling natural horns, wooden flutes (you can't beat a golden flute, begorrah), Norrington soggy strings and so forth, but had no idea that the brass instruments of the 20s/30s could be so historically different in sound from now (or previously).

Can anybody elucidate? (Maybe Bbf — Brandt, Brauer Fraestro?)

I should add a few things things. First, I was aware of a very distinctive performance but couldn't recognise anything other than the actual performance: very town band and bucolic at points and stuck in treacle in others. Very glad to have heard it though, warts (treacle) an' all — in readiness for this post, three times now.

Secondly, I feel quite proprietorial about this piece. It was the intro music to a BBC Sunday god-slot prog called "Seeing and Believing", produced by R.T. "Peter" Brooks in the late 60s (?). The show featured folk like Marghanita Laski, that son of the manse David Frost, David Shepherd and others. The opening sequence showed jaggedly cut sequences of a sweating, black "grunt" in 'Nam, juddering with the recoil as the shell cases cascaded from his HMG, panned Sistine Chapel shots, 1956 Hungarian refugee pram footage and more, all over the opening brass of the Sinfonietta.

Thirdly (and whisper this heresy), it never seems to dovetail with the rest of Janacek and seems to have more resonances of Martinu, alongside Les Fresques.

But back to original instruments of the 20s…

I'd be grateful for any help.

[Old Grumpy]

I drop in and out of this forum according to whim or events, so if you've ever heard a shy cough from behind the shadows…

Everyone seems so expert with loadsa degrees, playing experience and musical literacy — though a negligible set of prejudices — that I am encouraged to ask for some help. If not here, where?

No degrees (in music), playing experience and limited muscial literacy here, but I welcome your question - and look forward to reading a reply from our musically literate, instrumentally experienced and academically qualified co-forumites.

OG

[Nick Armstrong]

limited muscial literacy

Same here - only the AB piano exams - and no music degrees, plus limited and outstandingly mediocre amateur performance experience.

I too look forward to the expert responses!

[Pabmusic]

Well, let me have a stab at it. I'm sure that one of our hornists will give better technical detail, but here's an overview.

The biggest difference between early-20th Century brass and that of today is weight and "tubbiness". In general, bores have become wider, giving a 'fatter' sound. This is true of horns, with most players adopting the German-style double horn over the (more nimble?) French single horn - but I'll leave it to the experts to comment in detail.

You notice the change most with trombones. Nowadays most players seem to use monsters with heavy tubing and wide bells. These really carry weight and it's often important to spend time correcting the balance between the heavy brass and the rest of the orchestra. In the 1920s it was common to find trombones that were not very different from these (often called 'pea-shooter' trombones):

http://www.baroquetrumpet.com/collections/classical-trombones

The narrower bores on these generate a more piercing tone, not as 'woolly' as the modern monsters:

http://www.wwbw.com/Buyer-Guides-Trombone-g25065t0.wwbw#1

http://www.gear4music.com/Woodwind-Brass-Strings/Yamaha-YSL630-Professional-Trombone-Medium-Bore/J2F

Much the same can be said of tubas (though the major difference might be that modern tubas can be heard at least). Trumpets have not suffered so much, although some carry less 'edge'.

There's also been a revolution in playing styles, with orchestral brass playing seemingly becoming homogenised. It's quite easy to recognise a French, German, Russian or Czech orchestra in old recordings from the style of the brass playing (most obviously the prominence of vibrato). Not so easy now.

And when did this start to happen? With the rise of recording and broadcasting, mainly after WW2. It's part of the same phenomenon that causes some boarders to bemoan the fact that many orchestras are losing their particular individual qualities.

Well - at least this is a start.

[Aubade]

Wow. That's a fantastic answer. Thank you Pabmusic. I am a wiser and humbler chap thanks to you.

Your reply did trigger a few thoughts.

First, what you say about narrower bores producing a more piercing tone made me wonder about some of the tones and colours of earlier jazz musicians such as Dizzy G or Louis A, both of whose playing has a slightly period sound now which I had always unthinkingly put down to recording techniques.

Secondly, I love the idea of a shop that just sells baroque trumpets. That's very Joan Aiken or Hogwarts. "For Mendelsohn Sir? Not our sort of thing at all. Try a few doors down on the other side of the High Street. I'm sure they'll be able to help." And it's the way ahead for our emptying High Streets: for a toothbrush, not a chemist but the toothbrush shop, etc.

Finally, I've always thought of the concept of original instruments as applying to pre-20thC music. If there has been such a change or development of brass instruments and their sounds over such a short span of recent time, is the same true of other sections of the orchestra such as woodwind?

Thanks again.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The Vienna Philharmonic brass still have a 20s feel.

[Pabmusic]

...Finally, I've always thought of the concept of original instruments as applying to pre-20thC music. If there has been such a change or development of brass instruments and their sounds over such a short span of recent time, is the same true of other sections of the orchestra such as woodwind?

Thanks again.

Yes, of course there have been changes, but most obviously in playing styles, like use of portamento in strings (just listen to Elgar conducting the Enigma in 1926). Strings have (usually) abandoned gut in favour of metal. The composition of woodwind pads has improved (yes - it makes a difference). There are lots of technical innovations that have changed the reliability and sound of woodwind. Timpani are now invariably machine drums, allowing fine tuning and very quick changes of pitch (and therefore composers can write more virtuosic stuff). And most usually the heads are artificial, less affected by atmosphere. Harp actions have been improved, allowing again more virtuosic writing.

There have been performances of 20th-Century works on original instruments. The New Queen's Hall Orchestra has recorded The Planets, plus RVW and others:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004872RGG?ie=UTF8&keywords=new%20queen%27s%20hall%20orchestra&qid=1452041095&ref_=sr_1_7&sr=8-7

There's been more than one recording (I think) of The Rite of Spring on original instruments:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00H2C5PYU?keywords=sacre%20du%20printemps&qid=1452041912&ref_=sr_1_18&sr=8-18

[mathias broucek]

There's also been a revolution in playing styles, with orchestral brass playing seemingly becoming homogenised. It's quite easy to recognise a French, German, Russian or Czech orchestra in old recordings from the style of the brass playing (most obviously the prominence of vibrato). Not so easy now.

In theory I regret the homogonisation. In practice, I don't really like French, Russian and Czech brass sections. Narrow bore and vibrato in brass instruments don't really work for me, at least for music from about 1850 onwards.

Imagine what Mravinsky's 1960s Tchaikovsky would have sounded like with wind and brass to match the strings! (Later the Leningraders got Western instruments - I saw a early 1980s video recently where the trombone section all had Conns.)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Imagine what Mravinsky's 1960s Tchaikovsky would have sounded like with wind and brass to match the strings!

Gosh, yes! That would have been so bland!