Why were symphonies unfashionable in the 1850s and 1860s?

[Lat-Literal]

Can it only be explained by the modish impact of the Lisztian symphonic poem?

[Lat-Literal]

Roehre posted an initial list here of symphonies composed in the 1850s and 1860s with the comment they were not unfashionable, now shown in Post 4:



Roehre, thanks for your post. I've been listening to (mostly Kertesz's) Dvorak symphonies this morning and have also been reading up on them. There was a comment on the 2nd to the effect that it was remarkable given that it was produced in 1865 and the 1860s were a "desert" for symphonies. Exploring elsewhere, that statement seemed not only to be supported but broadened to include the 1850s. The reasoning provided was the previously mentioned point about Liszt. I suppose if one takes out the 1850s and looks only at the more significant names in the 1860s, your 1850s/60s list of about 50 would only be about 13 or 14 but I accept that what has been written has been countered by your list overall.

[vinteuil]

... why ain't there some kinda Medal or Decoration which we could accord to Roehre for services beyond the call of duty

[Roehre]

Can it only be explained by the modish impact of the Lisztian symphonic poem?

They weren't unfashionable:

Schumann Symphony no.3 "Rheinische" E-flat opus 97 1850
Rubinstein Symphony no.1 F opus 40 1850
Gade Symphony no.4 B-flat opus 20 1850
Gouvy Symphony no.3 C opus 20 1850
Saint Saëns Symphony A 1850
Rubinstein Symphony no.2 "Ocean" C opus 42 1851
Gade Symphony no.5 d opus 25 1852
Saint Saëns Symphony no.1 E-flat opus 2 1853
Smetana Festive Symphony E T.059 1854
Mirecki Symphony C 1854
Gounod Symphony no.1 D 1855
Gouvy Symphony no.4 opus 25 1855
Bizet Symphony no.1 C 1855
Gounod Symphony no.2 E-flat 1855
Rubinstein Symphony no.3 A opus 56 1855
Saint Saëns Symphony "Urbs Roma" F 1856
Liszt Dante Symphony S.109 1856
Liszt Faust Symphony S.108 1857
Gade Symphony no.6 g opus 32 1857
Bristow Symphony f-sharp opus 26 1858
Reinecke Symphony no.1 A opus 79 1858
Blodek Symphony d 1859
Saint Saëns Symphony no.2 a oopus 55 1859
Fétis Symphony no.1 E-flat 1861
Raff Symphony no. 1 "An das Vaterland" opus 96 1861
Bruckner Symphony "Study" f WAB 097b 1863
Hol Symphony no.1 c 1863
Volkmann Symphony no.1 d opus 44 1863
Dvorak Symphony no.2 B-flat opus 4 B.012 1865
Rimsky Korssakow Symphony no.1 e opus 1 1865
Gouvy Symphony no.5 B-flat opus 30 1865
Dvorak Symphony no.1 c [opus 3] B.009 1865
Volkmann Symphony no.2 B-flat 53 1865
Gade Symphony no.7 F opus 45 1865
Svendsen Symphony no.1 D opus 4 1866
Sullivan Symphony "Irish" e 1866
Bruckner Symphony no.1 "Linzer" c WAB 101 I 1866
Hol Symphony no.2 d opus 44 1866
Grieg Symphony c 1867
Borodin Symphony no.1 E-flat 1867
Hol Symphony no.3 B-flat opus 101 1867
Borodin Symphony no.1 E-flat 1867
Bruch Symphony no.1 E-flat opus 28 1868
Lange, de Symphony no.1 c opus 4 1868
Rimsky Korssakow Symphony no.2 "Antar" opus 9 1869
Tsjaikovsky Symphony no.1 "Winterdreams" g opus 13 1869
Dietrich Symphony d opus 20 1869
Bruckner Symphony no.0 d WAB 100 1869
Raff Symphony no. 3 "Im Walde" F opus 153 1869
Bruch Symphony no.2 f opus 36 1870

Not to mention Brahms' attempt for a symphony in d (eventually the piano concerto opus 15) and his sketching of the First from 1856 onwards )

[Roehre]

Roehre, thanks for your post. I've been listening to (mostly Kertesz's) Dvorak symphonies this morning and have also been reading up on them. There was a comment on the 2nd to the effect that it was remarkable given that it was produced in 1865 and the 1860s were a "desert" for symphonies. Exploring elsewhere, that statement seemed to be not only supported but broadened to include the 1850s. The reasoning provided was the previously mentioned point about Liszt. I suppose if one takes out the 1850s and looks only at the more significant names in the 1860s, your list of about 50 would only be about 13 or 14 but I do accept that what has been written has been countered by your list overall.

Raff was e.g. a most fashionable composer in the 1860s, even considered the most important symphonist, with Brahms as the most important composer of chamber music and Wagner of operas...
Rubinstein, Saint Saens and Volkmann were highly regarded then too, as were Gade and Bruch...

[Lat-Literal]

Raff was e.g. a most fashionable composer in the 1860s, even considered the most important symphonist, with Brahms as the most important composer of chamber music and Wagner of operas...
Rubinstein, Saint Saens and Volkmann were highly regarded then too, as were Gade and Bruch...

OK.

The point was made in a review - Amazon?

Then I went to Wikipedia: "Indeed, after Schumann's last symphony, the "Rhenish" composed in 1850, for two decades the Lisztian symphonic poem appeared to have displaced the symphony as the leading form of large-scale instrumental music. If the symphony had been eclipsed, it was not long before it re-emerged in a "second age" in the 1870s and 1880s, with the symphonies of Anton Bruckner, Johannes Brahms, Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, Camille Saint-Saëns, Alexander Borodin, Antonín Dvořák, and César Franck—works which continued to dominate the concert repertory for at least a century." I suppose the numbers of symphonies composed in the 1840s and 1870s could have been a lot bigger?

[Roehre]

OK.

The point was made in a review - Amazon?

Then I went to Wikipedia: "Indeed, after Schumann's last symphony, the "Rhenish" composed in 1850, for two decades the Lisztian symphonic poem appeared to have displaced the symphony as the leading form of large-scale instrumental music. If the symphony had been eclipsed, it was not long before it re-emerged in a "second age" in the 1870s and 1880s, with the symphonies of Anton Bruckner, Johannes Brahms, Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, Camille Saint-Saëns, Alexander Borodin, Antonín Dvořák, and César Franck—works which continued to dominate the concert repertory for at least a century." I suppose the numbers of symphonies composed in the 1840s and 1870s could have been a lot bigger?

It was the decade of the 1840s in which most composers refrained of composing symphonies, being in the shadow of Beethoven. Gade, Berwald, Mendelssohn and Schumann composed a handful, and in the 1830s it wasn't much better.

[Lat-Literal]

It was the decade of the 1840s in which most composers refrained of composing symphonies, being in the shadow of Beethoven. Gade, Berwald, Mendelssohn and Schumann composed a handful, and in the 1830s it wasn't much better.

Thanks for that information.

[Suffolkcoastal]

Below are the symphonies from the 1830s & 1840s which I reviewed during my symphonic journey. There are a number of very good but neglected symphonies ampong them deserving of regular repertory status.

1830
Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique
Kalliwoda: No 3 in D minor
Mendelssohn: No 5 in D minor
Wilms: No 7
1831
Lindblad: No 1 in C major
Onslow: No 1 in A major
1832
Onslow: No 2 in D minor
Potter: Symphony in G minor (No 4)
Schumann: Symphony in G minor 'Zwikau' (inc)
Spohr: No 4 in F 'Die Weihe der Tone'
Wagner:Symphony in C major
1833
Burgmuller: Symphony No 1 in C minor
Frohlich: Symphony in E flat major
Mendelssohn: No 4 in A
1834
Berlioz: Symphony 'Harold in Italy'
Glinka: Symphony on Two Russian Themes
Onslow: Symphony No 3 in F minor
Potter: Symphony in D major
Potter: Symphony in C minor (no 8/14)
Wagner: Symphony in E major (inc)
1835
W Sterndale Bennett: Symphony in G minor
Dobrzynsky: Symphony No 2 in C minor
J P Hartmann: Symphony No 1 in G minor
Kalliwoda: Symphony No 4 in C major
Lachner: Symphony No 5 in C minor
Nicolai: Symphony in D major
Ries: Symphony No 7 in A minor
1836
N Burgmuller: Symphony No 2 in D major (inc)
1837
Spohr: Symphony No 5 in C minor
1838
Weyse: Symphony No 5 in E flat (revised version)
1839
Berlioz: Dramatic Symphonie: Romeo & Juliet
Spohr: Symphony No 6 'Historical'
1840
Czerny: No 1 in C minor
Kalliwoda: No 5 in B minor
Mendelssohn: Symphony No 2 'Lobegesang'
1841
Farrenc: Symphony No 1 in C minor
Kalliwoda: Symphony No 5 in G minor
Schumann: Symphony No 1 'Spring'
Schumann: Symphony No 4
Spohr: Symphony No 7 in C major 'The Earthly & Divine in Human Life'
Verhulst: Symphony in E minor
1842
Berlioz: Symphonie Funebre et Triomphale
Berwald: Symphony No 2 in D major 'Sinfonie capricieuse'
Gade: Symphony No 1 in C minor
Kalliwoda: Symphony No 6 in F major
Mendelssohn: Symphony No 3 in A minor (Scottish)
1843
Berwald: Symphony No 1 in G minor (Sinfonie Serieuse)
Czerny: Symphony No 2 in D major
Gade: Symphony No 2 in E major
1844
Mosonyi (Brand): Symphony No 1 in D major
Staehle : Symphony in C minor
1845
Berwald: Symphony No 3 in C 'Singuliere'
Berwald: Symphony No 4 in E flat
Czerny: Symphony No 5 in E flat
Farrenc: Symphony No 2 in D major
1846
Onslow: Symphony No 4 in G major
Schumann: Symphony No 2 in C
1847
Gade: Symphony No 3 in A minor
Spohr: Symphony No 8 in G major

[Lat-Literal]

Below are the symphonies from the 1830s & 1840s which I reviewed during my symphonic journey. There are a number of very good but neglected symphonies ampong them deserving of regular repertory status.

1830
Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique
Kalliwoda: No 3 in D minor
Mendelssohn: No 5 in D minor
Wilms: No 7
1831
Lindblad: No 1 in C major
Onslow: No 1 in A major
1832
Onslow: No 2 in D minor
Potter: Symphony in G minor (No 4)
Schumann: Symphony in G minor 'Zwikau' (inc)
Spohr: No 4 in F 'Die Weihe der Tone'
Wagner:Symphony in C major
1833
Burgmuller: Symphony No 1 in C minor
Frohlich: Symphony in E flat major
Mendelssohn: No 4 in A
1834
Berlioz: Symphony 'Harold in Italy'
Glinka: Symphony on Two Russian Themes
Onslow: Symphony No 3 in F minor
Potter: Symphony in D major
Potter: Symphony in C minor (no 8/14)
Wagner: Symphony in E major (inc)
1835
W Sterndale Bennett: Symphony in G minor
Dobrzynsky: Symphony No 2 in C minor
J P Hartmann: Symphony No 1 in G minor
Kalliwoda: Symphony No 4 in C major
Lachner: Symphony No 5 in C minor
Nicolai: Symphony in D major
Ries: Symphony No 7 in A minor
1836
N Burgmuller: Symphony No 2 in D major (inc)
1837
Spohr: Symphony No 5 in C minor
1838
Weyse: Symphony No 5 in E flat (revised version)
1839
Berlioz: Dramatic Symphonie: Romeo & Juliet
Spohr: Symphony No 6 'Historical'
1840
Czerny: No 1 in C minor
Kalliwoda: No 5 in B minor
Mendelssohn: Symphony No 2 'Lobegesang'
1841
Farrenc: Symphony No 1 in C minor
Kalliwoda: Symphony No 5 in G minor
Schumann: Symphony No 1 'Spring'
Schumann: Symphony No 4
Spohr: Symphony No 7 in C major 'The Earthly & Divine in Human Life'
Verhulst: Symphony in E minor
1842
Berlioz: Symphonie Funebre et Triomphale
Berwald: Symphony No 2 in D major 'Sinfonie capricieuse'
Gade: Symphony No 1 in C minor
Kalliwoda: Symphony No 6 in F major
Mendelssohn: Symphony No 3 in A minor (Scottish)
1843
Berwald: Symphony No 1 in G minor (Sinfonie Serieuse)
Czerny: Symphony No 2 in D major
Gade: Symphony No 2 in E major
1844
Mosonyi (Brand): Symphony No 1 in D major
Staehle : Symphony in C minor
1845
Berwald: Symphony No 3 in C 'Singuliere'
Berwald: Symphony No 4 in E flat
Czerny: Symphony No 5 in E flat
Farrenc: Symphony No 2 in D major
1846
Onslow: Symphony No 4 in G major
Schumann: Symphony No 2 in C
1847
Gade: Symphony No 3 in A minor
Spohr: Symphony No 8 in G major

The work you did was extraordinary. Gade doesn't seem to feature very often these days. I don't mind Berwald. Ditto Mendelssohn and Schumann.

Which ones would you recommend to someone who prefers the symphonies from the late 1800s onwards? Light touch preferred to bang and crash.

[Stanfordian]

Can it only be explained by the modish impact of the Lisztian symphonic poem?

Hiya Lat-Literal,

As Suffolk has shown there were plenty of symphonies written during that period but perusing the list I notice how very few of them have held a permanent place in the repertoire.

[gradus]

Maybe I've misread Lat's posting but The Rhenish was not Schumann's last symphony.

[Lat-Literal]

Maybe I've misread Lat's posting but The Rhenish was not Schumann's last symphony.

No, the quote is accurate as it was originally printed but I suppose that is further proof of needing to be cautious of Wikipedia.

It isn't generally my first source - it wasn't here - but I turn to it for confirmation of what has been said elsewhere - plus detail.

Hiya Lat-Literal,

As Suffolk has shown there were plenty of symphonies write during that period but perusing the list I notice how very few of them have held a permanent place in the repertoire.

Hi Stan, that is a good point which supports Roehre's comments in many ways.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As Suffolk has shown there were plenty of symphonies write during that period but perusing the list I notice how very few of them have held a permanent place in the repertoire.

True, Stanf - but that's also true of the 1830s & '40s; only ten from Suffy's list get regularly(-ish) performed today.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Maybe I've misread Lat's posting but The Rhenish was not Schumann's last symphony.

Well, looked at one way, it sort-of was, in that the first version of the D minor "Fourth" was written before the Rhenish, even though the revisions to that work were made after.