"Early Music"

[vinteuil]

Why not consider all composers of the Classical period, Beethoven included, as 'Early Music' composers?

... oh, I do, Bryn - I do.

[french frank]

Anyone mentioned Landowska's book 'Musique ancienne', originally published in 1909*? I suspect she was referring mainly to the Baroque, esp JSBach.

Her pert response to Casals re JSB suggests she even had an idea of HIPP (even if she wasn't especially 'informed') - "You play it your way, I'll play it his way."

* Musique ancienne. Le mépris pour les anciens. La force de la sonorité. Le style. L'interprétation. Les virtuoses. Les mécènes et la musique. Avec la collaboration de M. Henri Lew-Landowski

Material description : In-8°, 271 p.
Note : Note : La couv. porte : Musique ancienne. Style. Interprétation. Instruments. Artistes
Edition : Paris : Mercure de France , 1909
Auteur du texte : Wanda Landowska (1879-1959)
Contributeur : Henryk Lew-Landowski

[doversoul1]

CPE Bach an example of an 'Early Music' composer? That really is stretching it. Why not consider all composers of the Classical period, Beethoven included, as 'Early Music' composers?

An example of the composers in the transitional era from Baroque to Classical?

[jean]

No - much more a composer who is still not as well known as his father is.

Terms such as Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic have boundaries it's worth arguing about. Early Music doesn't (didn't ever) belong to the same taxonomy.

[Lat-Literal]

Perhaps if Bbm had started a Thread called "What Music written before c1600 are you listening to now?", we might be listing pieces by now.


(After my smartalek initial post about "just before teatime" that everyone would have the good taste to pretend hadn't happened.)

When I said I wanted to learn more about early music, I was thinking mostly in terms of medieval and renaissance music. However, I could easily move the 1600 to 1730-1760 so as to include the Baroque. But if the romantic and impressionist eras are not classical music in its strictest definition, ie era then rationally I think I would have a problem with Beethoven being regarded as in capital letters Early Music. What it would mean is (a) There would just be Early Music and Later Music (b) Classical Music would exist meaningfully only as an all-encompassing term and (c) Any more specific meaning as in Classical Era would disappear along with what it signifies which is surely the music's centre or heart.

Also...."Ancienne" - surely that should really mean early or even the early part of early unless someone has a very modern view and considers almost all of history as way back!

On another note, does anyone know if Richard Terry had a musical son with a first name also starting with the letter "R"? I know it is oblique but it is a serious question!

[subcontrabass]

On another note, does anyone know if Richard Terry had a musical son with a first name also starting with the letter "R"? I know it is oblique but it is a serious question!

This site ( https://runciman.lornahen.com/lineag...vegibbsweb.pdf ) lists a son, two of whose first names begin with "R". He served as a pilot in the RAF before and during World War 2 (see http://www.bbm.org.uk/Terry.htm ). Died in 1975. Any musical skills seem to be undocumented.

[Lat-Literal]

This site ( https://runciman.lornahen.com/lineag...vegibbsweb.pdf ) lists a son, two of whose first names begin with "R". He served as a pilot in the RAF before and during World War 2 (see http://www.bbm.org.uk/Terry.htm ). Died in 1975. Any musical skills seem to be undocumented.

Many thanks - I was looking for a "Roy" but it seems that there isn't any link to RR.

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/roy-terry-44143a27

[BBMmk2]

Could "Early Music" be dated up to the "Classical Period"? I don't think, somehow, LvB's early work can come before "Classical Period"(as they are all certainly of classical in style?

[french frank]

Also...."Ancienne" - surely that should really mean early or even the early part of early unless someone has a very modern view and considers almost all of history as way back!

The problem is that like 'early' the adjective is not specifically musical/artistic (early morning, early bird, early potatoes) so is unlikely to have exactly the same meaning at every time and for every person. (Modernism is now a historical movement)

Why does anyone need to know? (I mean, why does any particular individual need to have a chronologically precise definition, more or less?)

[BBMmk2]

Why does anyone need to know? (I mean, why does any particular individual need to have a chronologically precise definition, more or less?)

A habit us humans seem to like, generally speaking, categorizing everything.

[vinteuil]

Terms such as Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic have boundaries it's worth arguing about. Early Music doesn't (didn't ever) belong to the same taxonomy.

... I agree : I don't think the term 'early music' by itself any longer has much meaning. And it's an area I worked in for quite a few years.

Yes, it began with a chronological sense - medieval, renaissance perhaps. As practitioners developed an ever greater sense of 'Historically Informed Performance Practice' they also moved into later and later repertoire - Baroque, Classical, Romantic. Other words were tried - 'authentic', 'period performance' and so on - but many of the structures concerned - OUP's 'Early Music', 'Early Music Today', 'Early Music News', 'Early Music Review', the Early Music Centre, the Early Music Network, the Early Music Shop, the Early Music Show, the York Early Music Festival, the Greenwich etc etc etc were saddled with the 'Early' title even as the periods they were dealing with no longer had any necessary 'early' sense chronologically. So for them, 'early' came to mean 'Historically Informed'. But for many listeners there is still a hankering after a chronological sense, which I think no longer exists.




.

[doversoul1]

A habit us humans seem to like, generally speaking, categorizing everything.

I think 'early music' is a useful and convenient term but not something that can have a solid definition. It’s all depends on what you are using it for.

[Serial_Apologist]

The problem is that like 'early' the adjective is not specifically musical/artistic (early morning, early bird, early potatoes) so is unlikely to have exactly the same meaning at every time and for every person.

I seem to recall, from my O Level French days, that ancien or ancienne, preceding the noun, means "former"; it is only when placed after it that it means "ancient".

(Modernism is now a historical movement)

Terrifying, no??

[Lat-Literal]

The problem is that like 'early' the adjective is not specifically musical/artistic (early morning, early bird, early potatoes) so is unlikely to have exactly the same meaning at every time and for every person. (Modernism is now a historical movement)

Why does anyone need to know? (I mean, why does any particular individual need to have a chronologically precise definition, more or less?)

I can't help but think we are in the same area here as "what does world music mean?" and who is not to say that the Committee which chose the latter didn't have "Early Music" as some sort of yardstick? It is the mere difference between a 1970s label and a 1980s one. Not that I disapprove of either term. I support them but I do go back to my point about the centre or perhaps the "mid". Are we now to see the romantic era of classical music as being the "mid" or "chronological centre" of classical music? To my mind, there is the connotation of substance at the mid or centre. It would suit my tastes. But if I am being objective, I'd have to say the substantive heart of classical music is Bach to Beethoven.

Also, I'm now chomping at the bit to question the timing of both romanticism and impressionism and the supposed distinctions between the two because my instinct is to place romanticism in classical music later than it is generally placed. Which I suppose would rationally enable Early Music to move forward a bit, albeit that it would be a big muddle.

[french frank]

I seem to recall, from my O Level French days, that ancien or ancienne, preceding the noun, means "former"; it is only when placed after it that it means "ancient".

Your recollection is correct - so 'ancien régime' means the one earlier than 'this one' (tbd) even if it was still flourishing five years ago

Terrifying, no??

Are we still in the post-modern age, or is that passé?

I agree with Vinteuil. If a new group is formed, say the Early Music Ensemble, they may wish to define for themselves where they want to focus and what they won't play eg no Baroque. I remember Andrew Manze presenting an Early Music Show which included Mozart - but there's nothing to say Mozart can't also be a Classical composer.