On women and composing

[Pabmusic]

...once a cure is found for it...

Unlikely. It's a condition you have from birth. Almost literally, your brain is 'wired up' differently. That's unlikely ever to be undone, since it's an embryonic feature.

(I know what I'm talking about. I was diagnosed in 2008 - something that had more explanatory power about my whole life than I could imagine.)

[jean]

It's an incredibly involved subject (and we'd need Ali G's cousin to chip in...)

Or possibly not:

In 2005, autism researcher Simon Baron-Cohen opened a New York Times article with the following statement: "By studying the differences between male and female brains, we can generate significant insights into the mystery of autism" (Baron-Cohen). What makes this statement possible, rhetorically, is a process of gendering that has made autism spectrum disorder (ASD) into "The Male Condition"—the title of Baron-Cohen's piece.

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[ahinton]

Unlikely. It's a condition you have from birth. Almost literally, your brain is 'wired up' differently. That's unlikely ever to be undone, since it's an embryonic feature.

(I know what I'm talking about. I was diagnosed in 2008 - something that had more explanatory power about my whole life than I could imagine.)

I was writing hypothetically but in any case there's never a never in such matters; even successful treatment of the condition that makes life easier might have some kind of impact on musical, mathematical and other creativities, though.

Sorry to hear about your diagnosis.

[kea]

The class argument is related, again very familiar (though not one I've heard so much recently) - all 'classical' music is irredeemably aristocratic or at least bourgeois. Male composers were no closer to the struggles of the typical person of either sex than their few female counterparts were - and even if they were sometimes little more than drudges themselves, they were composing to please patrons who really could not care less about anyone's struggles.

That argument was fairly common during the "social revival" of the 60s iirc. I personally would agree with much of it and add that the class-based nature of classical music intersects with its gendered nature by focusing on "idealised" gender roles far removed from the reality of their times.

(as how women think and compose will always remain a complete mystery to men and, of course, vice-versa) [...] males and females are different both physically and emotionally

Physically I'll give you, but most credible scientific authorities seem to agree that there is no male or female brain, with any differences being (a) smaller than the similarities, (b) neuroplastic and (c) caused by the very different gender socialisation of boys and girls—e.g. boys being treated as intelligent, aggressive, creative, strong, etc, girls being treated as quiet, submissive, domestic, fragile, etc.

Now, if I'm anywhere near right about this, Asperger's (or autism in general) affects one male in 40, but only one female in 200.

That's at least partly because autism is widely under-diagnosed in girls/women. See also: "gender socialisation" above.

Many studies document the higher prevalence of ASD in boys than in girls. One contributing factor may be an influence of gender on diagnosis. Some studies report more severe social and communication impairment in girls than in boys (Hartley and Sikora, 2009), but girls may be more encouraged and trained to behave socially by their environment, possibly leading to some mildly affected girls going unrecognized. Moreover, the gendered social environment is different between the sexes, which may lead to perception of the same social deficit being categorized as shy in girls and unresponsive in boys, contributing to the diagnostic bias towards males (Goldman, 2013). Additionally, the tests used to diagnose an individual may be biased towards the male specific pathophenotype, and may not include the aspects necessary to diagnose a girl with a mild form of ASD. Moreover, because of the awareness of the sex bias in ASD incidence, ASD is interpreted as a male disorder (Baron-Cohen, 2002), making it more likely for clinicians to diagnose boys with the disorder, as they are a risk group, than girls. Indeed, one study reports that girls are diagnosed with an ASD less frequently than boys with the same autistic trait scores (Russell et al., 2011). This is supported by a study that found girls who met the case definition of ASD as established by the Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring (ADDM) Network for ASD surveillance were less likely to have a formal ASD diagnosis than boys (Giarelli et al., 2010). The finding in several studies that girls are diagnosed later than boys (Mandell et al., 2010, Rhoades et al., 2007 and Shattuck et al., 2009) supports the hypothesis that girls are more likely to be underdiagnosed than boys. Furthermore, it may result in later intervention of ASD in girls leading to worse ASD scores later in life compared to boys.

Most sources agree that it is more common in boys/men, but probably not 5 times as common (or 11 or 23 times as common, as older studies used to suggest). The disorder can express differently in girls/women and, as is usual in medicine, the male form is viewed as the diagnostic standard and used to test treatments.

[ahinton]

That's at least partly because autism is widely under-diagnosed in girls/women. See also: "gender socialisation" above.

Most sources agree that it is more common in boys/men, but probably not 5 times as common (or 11 or 23 times as common, as older studies used to suggest). The disorder can express differently in girls/women and, as is usual in medicine, the male form is viewed as the diagnostic standard and used to test treatments.

If indeed there is widespread under-diagnosis/misdiagnosis of women where autism is concerned - and if the 5 × statistic is in any case unrelaible - that would put a rather different complexion on all of this; that said, it still leaves the overall impact of autism (even if more evenly balanced between the genders) on what's under discussion here as well worthy of due inclusion in its general considerations.

[Lat-Literal]

In broad social terms, am not at all keen on systemise versus empathise.

I would have thought broader empathy is likely to arise where the latter is assisted by the former.

This I like, irrespective of gender and any medical labelling: "Another woman writes that, in her experience, sensory input "comes in faster than I can process it," so she must look away in order to "process all the 'data' coming in". What may appear to be lack of empathy may be, according to these autistic women, an excess of emotional and sensory input".

[Pabmusic]

...Sorry to hear about your diagnosis.

Thanks but there's no need. It's not an illness. Everything I am and have ever been, all that anyone has ever liked or disliked about me is conditioned by it. If I weren't an aspie I'd be a different person in so many ways, not all of them better, by any means. I wouldn't want that. (I'd like less anxiety, mental 'overload' and to be more relaxed in general, though - but you can't have everything.)

[Pabmusic]

...That's at least partly because autism is widely under-diagnosed in girls/women...

Most sources agree that it is more common in boys/men, but probably not 5 times as common (or 11 or 23 times as common, as older studies used to suggest). The disorder can express differently in girls/women and, as is usual in medicine, the male form is viewed as the diagnostic standard and used to test treatments.

Your first point would have been truer ten years ago, but things are improving. Pre-pubescent girls tend to be much more capable at hiding the signs - but they tend to come in a rush in adolescence. Tony Attwood has a god book on this - Asperger's and Girls (2006)

Most sources do agree that it's more common in males, and 4:1 or 5:1 are the commonly given proportions. The UK National Autistic Society quotes a 2009 study by Brugha in which, among adults living in households in England, the proportion was 9:1. But Tony Attwood (above) suspects that the true figure may be nearer 2:1, simply because females hide it better, but that's just a reasoned suspicion. There is growing evidence that there may be 'female phenotypes' of autism, meaning autism might manifest itself quite differently in females. The ratio of males to females who use NAS adult services is approximately 4:1, and in those that use NAS schools it is approximately 5:1.

Here's some NAS info that makes many of the points that you and others have made here: http://www.autism.org.uk/about-autis...th-autism.aspx And: http://www.autism.org.uk/about-autis...adulthood.aspx

[Edit] I found this short talk online by Simon Baron-Cohen. It's not about music specifically, but bear in mind as you listen to it that music is largely a 'mathematical' skill - certainly it's about 'patterns': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEYy1GXaNNY