The Tyranny of Pop Music

[MrGongGong]

But the answer isn't 'NO', is it? It's much more like 'YES, BUT...'

And it's the details of what follows the 'but' that could be interesting, and that some posts - rauschwerk's #503 for example - address.

I think it's really more like

"not necessarily"

BUT, I was trying to be clear
as Natty seems to only deal in binaries

[NatBalance]

Volume and "distance" are NOT the same

Are you referring to reverb Mr Angry. If something is further away it has more environmental reverb therefore it should sound further way if it has such reverb?

[MrGongGong]

Are you referring to reverb Mr Angry. If something is further away it has more environmental reverb therefore it should sound further way if it has such reverb?

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

(I'm not angry, a bit amused)

What do you mean by "environmental reverb"?

On second thoughts don't try and answer that, I would suggest you find someone who has engineered an orchestral recording, buy them a pint and ask them.

[NatBalance]

I cannot see the point in trying to introduce 'natural' balance criteria into an artificial situation, and if Clemency's voice had been balanced at the same volume as the opening of the Martin, I probably would have been reaching for the volume control at the end of each item, especially if listening in the car.

Gosh yes, the loud parts of the double choir actually being loud would be intolerable, I quite agree .... cough :)

If listening in the car I reckon you would not hear the quiet parts of the Martin at all.

[Bryn]

... let's choose one Radio 3 programme:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06p51d0

So, remember what my complaint is, that everything sounds different distances. The louder something is in the real world the further away it sounds on the 'real' (that's for MrGG) broadcast or 'real' recording.

Click on the button to hear Clemency's introduction to Frank Martin's Kyrie Eleison from Mass for Double Choir at 1:05 and then listen to the volume of the choir. I mean, surely you must agree that that is rediculously quiet compared to Clemency's voice? It starts off so quiet you would not be able to hear it in a noisy environment. What are we hearing at the start? A few tenors? Singing at piano volume? They would be roughly the same volume or louder than Clemency's spoken word would they not? ...

Hmm. You have really lucked out on this one. I can hear the Kyrie (which is mostly a very quiet piece) perfectly well via the iPlayer Listen Again facility. What is more, the peak levels of CBH's intro and outro are quieter than the Kyrie itself. The peak level of the Kyrie is 4.5dB louder than than the intro, and that of the outro is even lower than the intro (7.5 dB below that of the Kyrie. However, due to the very quite nature of the early part of the Kyrie, the average RMS level of intro is 2.6 dB higher than the Kyrie, though CBH's outro average RMS level is 0.9 dB quieter than the Kyrie.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I cannot see the point in trying to introduce 'natural' balance criteria into an artificial situation…

Perhaps not, but sometimes the sound engineers don't get it right. For example, TV adverts are often much louder than the programmes they interrupt.

I have the Gramophone cover CD of Sir Colin Davis talking about Elgar (in The Real Great Composers series). The musical examples are given a normal recorded balance, but Sir Colin is so close and heavy, that one can imagine every crumb in the poor man's windpipe - unflattering for him and a little off-putting for the listener.

...and if Clemency's voice had been balanced at the same volume as the opening of the Martin, I probably would have been reaching for the volume control at the end of each item, especially if listening in the car.

I'd be thankful for the relief. . .

[MrGongGong]

Perhaps not, but sometimes the sound engineers don't get it right. For example, TV adverts are often much louder than the programmes they interrupt.

Isn't that so you can hear them from the kitchen while you make a cup of tea?
(but I guess you Steinway folks can just get one of the staff to bring it to you....... teachers pensions being so generous )

[doversoul1]

No, I think you are describing a toy train set. A model railway tries to replicate the real world as accurately as possible. As for 'hearing' on the radio. Are you saying you can 'hear' the Frank Martin in my link? I mean hear it properly, not just hear it.

I have deleted the model railway bit, as I’ve found out more about model raolways. I have reposted on the matter #525 (or somewhere about)

As for the Kyrie, I have no problem hearing it*. Some music starts quietly.

*I can hear it as music to be appreciated.

I said this before but why don’t you try to learn? You seemed to have hoarded a lot of information but you need to learn and understand why those bits of information are there and how they fit together. This forum is an ideal place for learning almost anything about music and related subjects (it’s none of my business but it is a pity).

[rauschwerk]

If listening in the car I reckon you would not hear the quiet parts of the Martin at all.

Probably would have with the Optimod compression.

[Bryn]

Probably would have with the Optimod compression.

No problem hearing it via DAB in the Roller.

[rauschwerk]

No problem hearing it via DAB in the Roller.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Only two people seem to be exasperated, ...

Well, three: but I'm so exasperated, I've given up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS12p0Zqlt0

[jean]

That is such an easy sneer, and misses the point entirely.

But I expect you knew that.

[MrGongGong]

That is such an easy sneer, and misses the point entirely.
.

I found it funny

Is this

I am advised by one of his former students that he was an excellent tutor, though she considered his philosophy and music to be quite, quite dire.

The point?


Or is the "point" Natty's lack of physics GCSE?

[doversoul1]

NatBalance
Sorry to go back to the model railway but re-reading your post, I realise that you are explaining perfectly how music broadcast on the radio works. I’ve looked at some model railways and they look great. So what’s the problem?

It's like looking at a model railway where every item on it is at a different scale, a car is at a bigger scale than a locomotive, making the car the same size as the locomotive (analogous to making a string quartet same volume as an orchestra). Now it does not matter how I look at that car and locomotive, whether I look through glasses not suited to my eyes or glasses suited to them, the car is still going to look the same size as the locomotive, in other words it is not going to make the car and the locomotive the same scale so that the latter is bigger than the former, like the things they are replicating are (better not say 'like they are in the real world'

Whether it is a toy or a model, it works in the same principle. As I said before, music played on the radio is meant to be listened to on the radio, in the same way as a toy railway is to be played with and a model to be looked at.