The Tyranny of Pop Music

[ahinton]

For a lot of us the turning point was probably the Stones at Altamont, 1969; it was then that what had always to a great extent underpinned the world of pop and rock really hit home; and that was a time more conducive to radicalisation, in the sense it then meant, than 1987.

That's as maybe, but how and to what extent might this impact upon reactions to that part of Roger Scruton's talk that dealt with certain types of "pop" music (albeit confusing his arguments somewhat withhis thoughts about piped music on mostly public places)? I don't think that Scruton was seeking to condemn all "pop" music or to put it all into one pigeon-hole and then shoot the pigeon.

"For a lot of us" doesn't include me, sadly, largely because of what I might call the BS factor, namely that, when my peers were listening to the Beatles and the Stones, I was boning up on Boulez and Stockhausen (which, as I think I've mentioned previously, might be regarded as a rather odd thing to do without having first heard some Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms and Tchaikovsky)...

[ahinton]

Well, it seems to have created quite a bit of "excitement" on this forum in the broad sense of that word.

That's certainly true!

I think it can make a difference too to social behaviour

Or maybe also to antisocial behaviour (I'm thinking relaying Mozart on train stations to frighten off the yobs thing) - but since most such piped music is supposed to have more subliminal than overt effect, itg could be regarded as a sinister phenomenon by anyone cynical enough to believe that it's there to duss the sense in order to fulfil an agenda by subconscious conercion of those peresnt when it's being relayed.

Setting aside "poor" old Beyonce

Yes, please! (acute accent or no acute accent)

a diet of the Beastie Boys's "Fight For Your Right To Party"

...or Marine le Pen's hit Fight For Your Right Wing Party

and a Heavytrackerz Ignition Mix generally played at snowboarding events

Never been to one of those...

will produce a different "shopping experience" to The Smiths's "Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now" and selected works by Leonard Cohen! Knowledge of them isn't needed. I can absolutely guarantee it.

But it's not all about just "shopping experiences", though, is it? It's not only relayed in shoping malls, superstores, department stoes and the like and it's not always relayed in the latter two in any case.

Is piped music a medium, I wonder? Perhaps it is a key outpost of the mass media or a channelling of "them".

I think that to be a far from unreasonable interpretation.

But on a "golden age", yes, I do believe that there have been more golden ages in the mainstream mass media and by association popular culture for this is not a golden age at all. It might well be that in terms of culture, there is more of the good than there has ever been but it is mostly on the fringes. But then even the more solid and recognizable elements of the establishment are similarly sidelined and operate virtually underground. I need to put these comments in a numerical context. I do not view any year beginning with a "2" as representing any sort of reality other than in terms of the very evident ongoing elements and the natural world. The 1990s were neither here nor there, partially because of Clinton but in the UK what occurred during John Major's "government".

I wish that I could share some of your optimism; one reason that I find it difficult to do so is based upon my suspicion that we didn;t know how bad so many things were 40 or so years ago than we do now.

[Lat-Literal]

That's certainly true!


Or maybe also to antisocial behaviour (I'm thinking relaying Mozart on train stations to frighten off the yobs thing) - but since most such piped music is supposed to have more subliminal than overt effect, itg could be regarded as a sinister phenomenon by anyone cynical enough to believe that it's there to duss the sense in order to fulfil an agenda by subconscious conercion of those peresnt when it's being relayed.


Yes, please! (acute accent or no acute accent)


...or Marine le Pen's hit Fight For Your Right Wing Party


Never been to one of those...


But it's not all about just "shopping experiences", though, is it? It's not only relayed in shoping malls, superstores, department stoes and the like and it's not always relayed in the latter two in any case.


I think that to be a far from unreasonable interpretation.


I wish that I could share some of your optimism; one reason that I find it difficult to do so is based upon my suspicion that we didn;t know how bad so many things were 40 or so years ago than we do now.

Like the humour in your post but on that final point that is why I believe in benevolent media regulation. Time has shown that it maximizes freedom whereas an anything goes approach leads to sameness as markets choose tried and tested formulae, there's obsessional repetition and, worse, clampdown in other areas as a response. But here's a big question. Has any modern classical composer attempted to represent in music any essence of the nothing-ish though heated modern ordinary world? In the past, serious music addressed all aspects of what was taking place culturally and/or politically, the good and the bad. So let's have less opting out and a tackling of it both as relevance and antidote. Until it arrives, this - atmospherically hazy but with sharp definition, a bit of warmth managed with reference to an age old universal theme in a society acutely aware of its own discomfort - is probably the best that anyone has achieved in capturing it. The difference is that it's very obviously an expression of it rather than any sort of objective comment:

Hard-Fi - Hard To Beat - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch6qy0qdifc

[Serial_Apologist]

That's as maybe, but how and to what extent might this impact upon reactions to that part of Roger Scruton's talk that dealt with certain types of "pop" music (albeit confusing his arguments somewhat withhis thoughts about piped music on mostly public places)? I don't think that Scruton was seeking to condemn all "pop" music or to put it all into one pigeon-hole and then shoot the pigeon.

Scruton's view of most (if not all) pop music appears to be based on a rose-tinted view of the pre-rock'n'roll world rather than a critique of its function and influence on consumerism. I'm not sure what he thinks of consumerism.

"For a lot of us" doesn't include me, sadly, largely because of what I might call the BS factor, namely that, when my peers were listening to the Beatles and the Stones, I was boning up on Boulez and Stockhausen (which, as I think I've mentioned previously, might be regarded as a rather odd thing to do without having first heard some Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms and Tchaikovsky)...

But Berio was listening to the Beatles, if not the Stones, and I think for a lot of us the late 1960s was an exciting period when so-called "high" and "low" arts converged at certain points, and on the terms of each, not, as later in so many cases, by mutual dilution.

[ahinton]

Like the humour in your post but on that final point that is why I believe in benevolent media regulation. Time has already shown that it maximizes freedom whereas an anything goes approach leads to sameness as markets choose tried and tested formulae, obsessional repetition and clampdown in other areas as a response. But here's a big question. Has any modern classical composer attempted to represent in music any essence of the rather nothing-ish though heated modern ordinary world? In the past, serious music addressed all aspects of what was taking place culturally and/or politically, the good and the bad. So let's have less opting out and a tackling of that one as both relevance and antidote.

Several points here.

Firstly, media regulation ain't - and indeed cannot be - what it used to be, given that media themselves are not either; once it was just newspapers/magazines and national and regional radion and television broadcasters, but today it's a whole new and to a consdxeirable extent unregulable world.

As to whether "any modern classical composer [has] attempted to represent in music any essence of the rather nothing-ish though heated modern ordinary world", I have no idea but that's no doubt in part because I take issue with your assertion that "in the past, serious music addressed all aspects of what was taking place culturally and/or politically, the good and the bad", because although no such music was written in a vacuum unaffected by such things as cultural and political events, the suggestion that any of it actually reflected them directly in ways that every listener would without question or exception accept, appreciate and understand as such is quite another matter. That in your question you refer to the notion of a composer consciously attempting to represent such things in music you ask about the impossible rather undermines its entire point, I think.

One might argue that the fact that Beethoven's increasing deafness left him less and less able to focus on external and extra-musical events meant that any such alleged "representational" aspect of of his early and middle period music simply had to take a back seat while he wrote his Missa Solemnis and final five quartets.

Sorabji usefully wrote about how claims attributed to Richard Strauss that he could represent a fork and a spoon in music were fatuous but that the sound of a stream (here referring to Ravel) might have sparked off something in the composer's imagination despite the rather obvious fact that no actual stream ever sounded like the passage that Ravel produced. Stravinsky's famous barb (or whatever it was) about music being capable of expressing nothing beyond itself is misleading; whoever it was that countered it by saying that music is capable of expressing everything but name nothing was far closer to the mark, I think.

[ahinton]

Scruton's view of most (if not all) pop music appears to be based on a rose-tinted view of the pre-rock'n'roll world rather than a critique of its function and influence on consumerism. I'm not sure what he thinks of consumerism.

Precious little, I believe!

But Berio was listening to the Beatles, if not the Stones, and I think for a lot of us the late 1960s was an exciting period when so-called "high" and "low" arts converged at certain points, and on the terms of each, not, as later in so many cases, by mutual dilution.

Fair enough; I referred only to myself here, not to Berio whose experiences were, as you rightly illustrate, very different.

By the way, other musically oriented "tyrannies" have been mentioned here - by you and P.G., I believe, so let's not forget Bernard van Dieren's objections to the "tyranny of the beat" which prompted him to write so much music without barlines (even though most of it could have them inserted quite easily!); that one would, I'm sure, serve Mr Scruton's cause rather effectively, methinks!

[Lat-Literal]

Severl points here.

Firstly, media regulation ain't - and indeed cannot be - what it used to be, given that media themselves are not either; once it was just newspapers/magazines and national and regional radion and television broadcasters, but today it's a whole new and to a consdxeirable extent unregulable world.

As to whether "any modern classical composer [has] attempted to represent in music any essence of the rather nothing-ish though heated modern ordinary world", I have no idea but that's no doubt in part because I take issue with your assertion that "in the past, serious music addressed all aspects of what was taking place culturally and/or politically, the good and the bad", because although no such music was written in a vacuum unaffected by such things as cultural and political events, the suggestion that any of it actually reflected them directly in ways that every listener would without question or exception accept, appreciate and understand as such is quite another matter. That in your question you refer to the notion of a composer consciously attempting to represent such things in music you ask about the impossible rather undermines its entire point, I think.

One might argue that the fact that Beethoven's increasing deafness left him less and less able to focus on external and extra-musical events meant that any such alleged "representational" aspect of of his early and middle period music simply had to take a back seat while he wrote his Missa Solemnis and final five quartets.

Sorabji usefully wrote about how claims attributed to Richard Strauss that he could represent a fork and a spoon in music were fatuous but that the sound of a stream (here referring to Ravel) might have sparked off something in the composer's imagination despite the rather obvious fact that no actual stream ever sounded like the passage that Ravel produced. Stravinsky's famous barb (or whatever it was) about music being capable of expressing nothing beyond itself is misleading; whoever it was that countered it by saying that music is capable of expressing everything but name nothing was far closer to the mark, I think.

My response is going to be along the lines of "if you can do that, then you can do this". If you can "do" war extensively in classical music as it has been done, then you can do a fork and a spoon and the experience of having to work 72 hours a week, being on benefits, tolerating traffic jams, trying to find some sort of long-term stable relationship in a climate where the greater instinct might be "to party", throwing yourself round Lidl with all that entails and more. If you can suddenly go into total internet clampdown as some countries do and indeed this one would do if it genuinely felt that it was crucial to national security, then you can design content in radio subtly, centrally. The liberal emphasis has become seriously clogged by rigid concepts of either/or. That way of thinking has been so acutely thrown at people that most under the age of 40 can't think in any other way.

Perhaps six modern classical composers could be invited to compose symphonies on piped music with no specific instruction on angle, breadth or overall approach in the remit? I accept that it would require the constructive application of ability and imagination rather than necessarily needing reasoning or abilities in critique. Lloyd's "Pop Song" is an interesting precursor in that it wasn't a pop song but a "Charade". He did it with humour. Others might wish to take a Cardew sort of stance and most would probably be more oblique. Film wouldn't have to be ruled out - one thinks of the images for Glass's "Koyaanisqatsi". All I'm saying is that composition would be some sort of answer to alienation.

[P. G. Tipps]

I'm not sure what he (Scruton) thinks of consumerism.

Basically exactly what one would expect from an Anglo-Catholic who has often pondered on taking the leap to Rome. Scruton confesses he still likes the 'flexibility' :grin: of the Church of England so he has resisted the conversion, at least for now.

The following book on the subject might be of interest ...

http://www.amazon.com/Green-Philosophy-Roger-Scruton/dp/1848870760/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1325527565&sr=8-1

[Serial_Apologist]

My response is going to be along the lines of "if you can do that, then you can do this". If you can "do" war extensively in classical music as it has been done, then you can do a fork and a spoon and the experience of having to work 72 hours a week, being on benefits, tolerating traffic jams, trying to find some sort of long-term stable relationship in a climate where the greater instinct might be "to party", throwing yourself round Lidl with all that entails and more. If you can suddenly go into total internet clampdown as some countries do and indeed this one would do if it genuinely felt that it was crucial to national security, then you can design content in radio subtly, centrally. The liberal emphasis has become seriously clogged by rigid concepts of either/or. That way of thinking has been so acutely thrown at people that most under the age of 40 can't think in any other way.

Perhaps six modern classical composers could be invited to compose symphonies on piped music with no specific instruction on angle, breadth or overall approach in the remit? I accept that it would require the constructive application of ability and imagination rather than necessarily requiring reasoning or abilities in critique. Lloyd's "Pop Song" is an interesting precursor in that it wasn't a pop song but a "Charade". He did it with humour. Others might wish to take a Cardew sort of stance and most would probably be more oblique. Film wouldn't have to be ruled out - one thinks of the images for Glass's "Koyaanisqatsi". All I'm saying is that composition would be some sort of answer to alienation.

One example that comes close to my mind was Xenakis's 1968 tape piece "Non consumiamo Marx", largely made up of recorded sounds of shouted revolutionary slogans and of street demonstrators in Paris that May, but mostly one had to go outside the contemporary music world in which allusion was felt to go more powerfully hand-in-hand with updated formal orthodoxy when performing to bourgeois audiences, as in the case of Berio's "Laborintus II" and his "Sinfonia" than crossing over to commercial forms possibly tainted by commercialism. It was the British Experimental school around Cardew that took what is considered revolutionary messages reflective of capitalist society into streets, factories and "working men's" clubs, and such work "crossed over" with that of street theatre groups in the 1970s such as Red Ladder, with young jazz musicians, and The Welfare State under John Fox, based up in Preston and maybe (I don't know) still going? Mike and Kate Westbrook have finessed the latter's more oblique, historical approach in their Jazz Cabaret, which started life as long ago as 1978 with a production titled "Moma Chicago".

[MrGongGong]

The Welfare State under John Fox, based up in Preston and maybe (I don't know) still going?

John and Sue have now "retired"
but doing this

http://www.deadgoodguides.com

Sadly Welfare State is no more and the wonderful Lanternhouse building in Ulverston has been sold

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2012/feb/24/art-lakedistrict-lanternhouse-ulverston

[Lat-Literal]

One example that comes close to my mind was Xenakis's 1968 tape piece "Non consumiamo Marx", largely made up of recorded sounds of shouted revolutionary slogans and of street demonstrators in Paris that May, but mostly one had to go outside the contemporary music world in which allusion was felt to go more powerfully hand-in-hand with updated formal orthodoxy when performing to bourgeois audiences, as in the case of Berio's "Laborintus II" and his "Sinfonia" than crossing over to commercial forms possibly tainted by commercialism. It was the British Experimental school around Cardew that took what is considered revolutionary messages reflective of capitalist society into streets, factories and "working men's" clubs, and such work "crossed over" with that of street theatre groups in the 1970s such as Red Ladder, with young jazz musicians, and The Welfare State under John Fox, based up in Preston and maybe (I don't know) still going? Mike and Kate Westbrook have finessed the latter's more oblique, historical approach in their Jazz Cabaret, which started life as long ago as 1978 with a production titled "Moma Chicago".

An interesting post, thank you. It has encouraged me to consider the Westbrooks. At the end of October, I posted some links to people with birthdays on the "Song" thread, labelling it "Not a Regular Feature". I had in research discovered David Lumsdaine who I thought interesting and the piece selected - not really song - may link in slightly with your point about Xenakis. I would like to see the matters raised in this thread addressed in music, not necessarily overtly politically. It seems to me that potentially the scope is considerable.

David Lumsdaine - Big Meeting : Praise : People Speak - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLjQsMaPgbA

In 2015, any initiative of this kind would invariably be done under a big banner to have maximum impact. I should have thought it would be wholly in line with "the modern R3"!

[NatBalance]

The obvious answer to that is, you probably have some kind of hearing problem. As to your question #319, apart from occasional mishaps, it all sounds ‘natural’ and well ‘balanced’ to me.

Ah, a hearing problem. Well, if you think an orchestra at full blast sounding virtually no louder than a string quartet or the relaxed voiced presenter is natural, or to put it another way, all sound different distances … then what can I say?

Piped music in disguise.

[rauschwerk]

Ah, a hearing problem. Well, if you think an orchestra at full blast sounding virtually no louder than a string quartet or the relaxed voiced presenter is natural, or to put it another way, all sound different distances … then what can I say?

Piped music in disguise.

Firstly: why not install a sound level app on your phone? Apparently they are quite accurate. Even if the absolute readings are not perfect, you will find out if your subjective impressions of relative sound levels correspond to your objective measurements.

Secondly, all audio media have finite dynamic ranges. Technicians naturally wish to take full advantage of whatever is available. A solo fiddle will therefore be recorded at the same peak level as a full orchestra. It is the listener's job to adjust the volume to give a realistic sound level in their listening room.

As for the issue of relative announcer levels, it's been debated for many years. Many, myself included, are generally happy. I don't much care how realistic the result is. Some are not. You will need to learn to get over it, I'm afraid.

[Cockney Sparrow]

As for the issue of relative announcer levels, it's been debated for many years. Many, myself included, are generally happy. I don't much care how realistic the result is. Some are not. You will need to learn to get over it, I'm afraid.

My children developed uncanny internal clocks to enable channel hopping on junk TV during adverts. Similarly I've found a way of getting over it, - for example I switch off Radio 4 (who are the worst offenders for me) to eliminate he 50 second cross platform adverts for whatever the channel or the BBC as a whole are pushing, plus any news bulletin so I can avoid the intrusion - completely calculated to assault the ears and "grab" the attention whether I like it or not. I do the same to the advertorial content in programmes such as CD review and as I don't listen to morning R3 this eliminates a lot of these objectionable intrusions.

[Bryn]

... all audio media have finite dynamic ranges. Technicians naturally wish to take full advantage of whatever is available. A solo fiddle will therefore be recorded at the same peak level as a full orchestra. It is the listener's job to adjust the volume to give a realistic sound level in their listening room.

While this is generally the case, some recording engineers take a different approach. The music of Morton Feldman is well known for its near ubiquitous low dynamics. Some musicians and recording engineers take the view that rather than set the peak level of a recording of Feldman's music close to 0dB and suggest the listener adjust the volume control to a lower than normal level, the recording level should reflect the music's low dynamics, and thus the peak level may be well below 0dB. With today's wide dynamic range offered by digital recording techniques, there is some validity to the 'original dynamics' approach. It does, however, seem to me a waste of the dynamic range available. Some fine detail seems potentially to be lost.