The Tyranny of Pop Music

[MrGongGong]

I thought it was called a "nipple" - for obvious reasons, although I feel a sinking sensation that many years ago, my leg was pulled?

No, that's right either word is correct.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

No, that's right either word is correct.

<phew> -

[Ferretfancy]

If I was a composer I'd feature massive tam tam smashes at every possible opportunity, no holds barred.As for gongs, I've always enjoyed the old Decca Erede set of Turandot, not least because the gongs are upfront in the balance and don't hide their light under a bushel as so many other versions do.

[P. G. Tipps]

Personally, I tend to find the use of percussion rather vulgar and it should be employed, if at all, very sparingly indeed.

The effect of 'noise' rather than actual music has much in common with the banal pop-music that Mr Scruton so rightly deplores.

Surely gongs should be solely reserved for serving-maids alerting male Lounge or Study occupants that they should now repair to the Dining-Room for Luncheon or Supper ... ?

[ahinton]

Personally, I tend to find the use of percussion rather vulgar and it should be employed, if at all, very sparingly indeed.

The effect of 'noise' rather than actual music has much in common with the banal pop-music that Mr Scruton so rightly deplores.

Surely gongs should be solely reserved for serving-maids alerting male Lounge or Study occupants that they should now repair to the Dining-Room for Luncheon or Supper ... ?

P. G. Tipps is served? No, I don't think so - certainly not as a consequence of your post here, which I am obliged to interpret as a mere attempted wind-up. Ask youself why Varèse had gongs in his home studio and why Messiaen used them so effectively before making crass comments about percussion being "vulgar". Sometimes you really do let yourself down very badly.

[french frank]

which I am obliged to interpret as a mere attempted wind-up.

Could just be attempted jocularity with no other motive?

[NatBalance]

Gongers - in response to my statement "I don't see why there should be any difference in the amplification of pop and classical. What's good for one is good for the other" …

…. you replied …

Just think about that for a moment then put some HP sauce in your muesli (what's good for one type of breakfast is good for the other)

Naaa, that analogy doesn't work. That is adding one food to another food it normally has no business being placed. Amplification is not another instrument, being placed amongst other instruments it is not normally associated with.

My statement "Incidentally I think pop music is usually over amplified"

You ask …

WHERE?
In what context?

Well, in the back room of a pub? Do you need that much or any amplification in a pub? Perhaps a little to adjust volume balances, especially against drums, but does it need to be so loud that visitors to the pub have to shout right down someone's ear in order to be heard? We have extremes when it comes to amplification. Either it's an orchestra trying to fill the Albert Hall with no amplification, or it's a little folk or jazz group in a pub backroom with loads of it.

NatBalance - a lot of sense in your posts , possibly more than that of Roger Scruton's talk.

Thank you … but then there's more …

However there seems to be a contradiction in that you are addressing your posts to an extremely knowledgeable group, whereas your views of loud/quiet music appear to concern a listener who is not paying attention to the music, either because their musical tastes are gauche ( a young teenager for example) or someone who is busy doing something else - shopping or traversing an airport terminal.

I sometimes wonder whether some people are too much engrossed with the knowledge of music and understanding it at the expense of enjoying the actual sound of it, in which case that might explain why volume does not make a difference. I have noticed many people at classical concerts for whom there does not seem to be any visible reaction going on. They are stock still like statues in their seats. Big impressive chords could be thundering out but ….. nothing …. a big expansive tune could be filling the concert hall but … nothing …. no singing along, not even foot tapping. Now I'm not expecting the type of body movement and singing that goes with pop music but I don't seem to notice any significant reactions at all. If a piece of music has energy (and volume) I can't keep still whether it's pop or classical, something like Holst's Mars, how can you keep still during that? In a subdued way of course when part of the audience.

I remember a very experienced classical pianist giving some night classes once, he even had a Polish type surname so must have been good … …. Anyway, he could do something which surprised and puzzled me. When demonstrating something on the piano he could stop at a most inappropriate point in the phrasing, he could stop mid phrase and immediatley carry on talking. I found it a bit uncomfortable, his demonstration did not require him to finish mid phrase. It was as if the music was not actually having much affect on him. It was just a collection of chords and notes and theory.

This seeming lack of 'flow with the music' is noticeable when a piece ends at a concert. The clapping can start too soon after the final chord, not in time with it (or too soon after a quiet ending). After a particularly dramatic final chord I have to have a little recovery time afterwards before clapping but many audiences are so keen to get in there with the first clapping I cannot believe they have actually been moving with the music, they have just been listening to it.

As we all know there is a difference between hearing a piece of music and listening to it, but I believe there is a further difference, the difference between listening to a piece and moving with it and being moved by it.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Personally, I tend to find the use of percussion rather vulgar and it should be employed, if at all, very sparingly indeed.

Agreed.

The drum kit is so often used as musical scaffolding.

Stanley knives can do so much to improve the sound of the drum kit.

[MrGongGong]

That is adding one food to another food it normally has no business being placed

You are going to make rules about food as well?
Well i'm sticking with my blue cheese and banana thanks

Well, in the back room of a pub?

Which pub? They are all different in my experience

Do you need that much or any amplification in a pub?

Sometimes yes, and it all depends on WHAT the music is

but does it need to be so loud that visitors to the pub have to shout right down someone's ear in order to be heard?

Sometimes, yes

We have extremes when it comes to amplification.

Indeed that's why lots of orchestras have screens in front of the brass.

I sometimes wonder whether some people are too much engrossed with the knowledge of music and understanding it at the expense of enjoying the actual sound of it,

Sorry mate but this is total b*llocks and a bit of a straw grasp to explain your own unwillingness to engage with learning.

[MrGongGong]

Stanley knives can do so much to improve the sound of the drum kit.

Maybe, but if you want a decent Steinway fire you need a few oboes for kindling

[NatBalance]

Sorry mate but this is total b*llocks and a bit of a straw grasp to explain your own unwillingness to engage with learning.

Ah yes, the old "this is total b*llocks" reply. That explains everything.

[MrGongGong]

Ah yes, the old "this is total b*llocks" reply. That explains everything.

Well you seem to like making stuff up to explain things you don't get (not that i'm suggesting that I do get them all) so it seemed a fairly accurate description.
To elucidate a bit more (if you can be bothered ?)

Several years ago I had a very interesting conversation with Robin Maconie at a festival of Stockhausen's music at the RFH. One of the people I was with asked him what was it that first drew him to this music? and the answer was a definite enthusiasm for the SOUND it made with everything else coming later. I know plenty of musicians who play and listen "ultra-complex" music who would share the same sentiments. You might wonder why BUT unless you bother to find out more then you are doing the classic "McCartney" defence of "hey man, I don't understand that stuff and if I learn more it will get in the way of my creativity", which it utter lazy bullshit from a man who had ALAN CIVIL (FFS) playing on his records.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have noticed many people at classical concerts for whom there does not seem to be any visible reaction going on. They are stock still like statues in their seats. Big impressive chords could be thundering out but ….. nothing …. a big expansive tune could be filling the concert hall but … nothing …. no singing along, not even foot tapping. Now I'm not expecting the type of body movement and singing that goes with pop music but I don't seem to notice any significant reactions at all. If a piece of music has energy (and volume) I can't keep still whether it's pop or classical, something like Holst's Mars, how can you keep still during that? In a subdued way of course when part of the audience.

Natty - has it ever occurred to you that these other members of the audience might be noticing you and thinking you're a bit of a knob, too?

[Beef Oven!]

I remember a very experienced classical pianist giving some night classes once, he even had a Polish type surname........................

Mr Sheen?

[Beef Oven!]

Natty - has it ever occurred to you that these other members of the audience might be noticing you and thinking you're a bit of a knob, too?

I can't comment on whether or not NatBalance might be considered a bit of a knob by fellow concert goers, but I do think he has a point about the stoics. It is a bit weird, sometimes.