The Tyranny of Pop Music

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

In many ways the current trend in music education for everything to be about Performance because that's a demonstrable and easily measurable "skill" is having a detrimental effect on music education. But that's another discussion all together.

That's interesting. When I began teaching in the 1970s, there was an unbalanced obsession with composing, spearheaded by Professor John Paynter (who advocated a balanced curriculum himself, but many of his followers were extremists, and morphed into a pressure group of doubtful vision).

[ahinton]

I think you might be digging a hole here.
Of course there should be MORE music in schools of ALL types
In my opinion those who have only listened to "Classical" music (and they DO exist) should be taught about Metal and Jazz and those who have only heard "Pop" music should be singing Monteverdi Madrigals .... that's what school is for ! To discover NEW things. (IMV)

In many ways the current trend in music education for everything to be about Performance because that's a demonstrable and easily measurable "skill" is having a detrimental effect on music education. But that's another discussion all together.

I am neither digging a hole (I leave such things to people fitter than I am!) nor disagreeing with any of what you write here.

[ahinton]

Not only can I bear it, I am now positively wallowing in it, jean ...

How wonderful!

You may wallow at your heart's content (although it might be better if you do so in the privacy of your own abode without necessarily advertising the fact in public), but given that this article makes no mention of women in music or the questionable notions of women composers writing "feminine" music (whatever that might or moght not be), its relevance to the matter at hand is also questionable and, whatever one might think of its contents one way or the other, it need not and indeed should not influence one's view of Mr Scruton's piece about the thread topic; it is - and indeed should be - perfectly possible to take issue with somone's views on one topic while being far more sympathetic to his/her views on another.

[P. G. Tipps]

Well said, ahinton!

[french frank]

In my opinion those who have only listened to "Classical" music (and they DO exist) should be taught about Metal and Jazz and those who have only heard "Pop" music should be singing Monteverdi Madrigals .... that's what school is for ! To discover NEW things. (IMV)

The snag is that whereas "pop" (= popular) is the default (and I would include the various grades of Metal in that - but not jazz) in the world outside formal education, classical seldom even comes to the attention of anyone now, young or old, unless they happen already to be enthusiasts. As new research by astrophysicists confirms:

"It’s exciting that science has finally proven that classical music inhabits an independent, autonomous realm, detached from our mundane experience,” he continued. “But the question remains, what is classical music even doing in our universe in the first place?”

In many ways the current trend in music education for everything to be about Performance because that's a demonstrable and easily measurable "skill" is having a detrimental effect on music education.

Exactly. The same mindset exists when people defend Radio 3 presenters on the grounds that they play the violin. That also is another subject

I read what I take to be the transcript of Scruton's talk. Although there were digs at 'modern pop', I did get the impression that he was talking principally about the ubiquity of 'music' which is heard but not listened to.

[MrGongGong]

. As new research by astrophysicists confirms:
.

Physicists affiliated with the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) released a report Wednesday revealing that classical music exists in a field of reality entirely removed from the four-dimensional spacetime inhabited by human beings.

The same might be said for Scrote

[ahinton]

In my opinion those who have only listened to "Classical" music (and they DO exist) should be taught about Metal and Jazz and those who have only heard "Pop" music should be singing Monteverdi Madrigals

Sure, but would you not agree that the former category is a tiny minority and the latter a vast majority, especially (though by no means exclusively) amoung young people (by which I more or less mean those of pre-school and school age) - so it's not an even problem?

[ahinton]

The same might be said for Scrote

If you must keep calling him that I might feel inclined to start calling you Tammy...

[MrGongGong]

Sure, but would you not agree that the former category is a tiny minority and the latter a vast majority, especially (though by no means exclusively) amoung young people (by which I more or less mean those of pre-school and school age) - so it's not an even problem?

Yes
probably about the same as your "as many as there are" group

As for Scruton, I find it hard to think of his name without the image of a walnut in my mind (which might say more about me than him?)

I quite like Tammy but i'm sure you are more than aware that there is a difference.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The same mindset exists when people defend Radio 3 presenters on the grounds that they play the violin.

Not necessarily - not all the time. If someone claims that a certain presenter has "no Musical background" then it is only fair that that/those particular presenter's/presenters' considerable "Musical background/s" is/are made clear. The point is that mentioning, defending or neglecting such a background is irrelevant - the quality of the presentation is all; and if poor quality presentation is attacked with irrelevant and inaccurate comments, then pointing out such inaccuracies does not amount to a "defence" of the presenter.

[ahinton]

The snag is that whereas "pop" (= popular) is the default (and I would include the various grades of Metal in that - but not jazz) in the world outside formal education, classical seldom even comes to the attention of anyone now, young or old, unless they happen already to be enthusiasts.

That's an important factor, for sure.

The same mindset exists when people defend Radio 3 presenters on the grounds that they play the violin. That also is another subject

It certainly is! - but does anyone REALLY do that? Yes, I've heard people mention the string playing skills of two such, but not, I believe, in the specific context of defending the nature and content of their R3 presentations (unless I've missed a post or three on this); OK, maybe someone might have mentioned surprise that someone who plays the violin might be expected not to make certain gaffes, but that's not quite the same thing.

I read what I take to be the transcript of Scruton's talk. Although there were digs at 'modern pop', I did get the impression that he was talking principally about the ubiquity of 'music' which is heard but not listened to.

That's the principal impression that came across to me as well, along with the forced nature of that ubiquity. Additionally, however, some of what he said might also be taken to imply that the kind of music forced on people in public places had by nature and design to be fairly empty of content and not to challenge listeners to concentrate on its material, so no Schönberg or (name your own composer) and, as a consequence, the force-feeding involved is of a kind of musical equivalent of junk food whose purpose is more to dull than to excite the senses.

[ahinton]

Not necessarily - not all the time. If someone claims that a certain presenter has "no Musical background" then it is only fair that that/those particular presenter's/presenters' considerable "Musical background/s" is/are made clear. The point is that mentioning, defending or neglecting such a background is irrelevant - the quality of the presentation is all; and if poor quality presentation is attacked with irrelevant and inaccurate comments, then pointing out such inaccuracies does not amount to a "defence" of the presenter.

100% correct! Indeed, such an argument might seem almost to be on a par with criticising the nature and content of R3 presenters' presentations on the grounds that they don't play the violin!...

[french frank]

It certainoly is! - but does anyone REALLY do that? Yes, I've heard people mention the string playing skills of two such, but not, I believe, in the specific context of defending the nature and content of their R3 presentations (unless I've missed a post or three on this).

Not here: I will spare blushes since I only heard it put forward as a defence on one particular occasion …

Additionally, however, some of what he said might also be taken to imply that the kind of music forced on people in public places had by nature and design to be fairly empty of content and not to challenge listeners to concentrate on its material [...] , the force-feeding involved is of a kind of musical equivalent of junk food whose purpose is more to dull than to excite the senses.

All of which is the exact opposite of the concert hall, where we now begin to see the rebellion against quietly concentrating and the move towards 'normalising' behaviour by introducing routine habits - texting, taking photographs, eating and drinking - into the listening experience. The music gradually becomes the background to life.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

100% correct! Indeed, such an argument might seem almost to be on a par with criticising the nature and content of R3 presenters' presentations on the grounds that they don't play the violin!...

Indeed - though it occirs to me that frenchie may have in mind those BBC publicity "people" who often seem to be claiming that certain presenters "must" be good because they play the violin/have a doctorate/pretty good at the botafogos? (Equally irrelavent there, too, of course.)

[jean]

I read what I take to be the transcript of Scruton's talk. Although there were digs at 'modern pop', I did get the impression that he was talking principally about the ubiquity of 'music' which is heard but not listened to.

He was conflating the two arguments. That is the main problem with the talk.