The Tyranny of Pop Music

[Lat-Literal]

I carry around a lot of earworms for most of the time in my head, and so musak in supermarkets tends to pass me by for the most part. Aside from actual music listening, I normally need to "tune out" this inner musical narrative in order to let sounds from the environment "intervene" upon my waking consciousness. In consequence the idea of needing musak as some sort of aural blotter is rather a shame.

Hi again S-A,

It's horses for courses but I'm just pointing out that it can be beneficial even if the specific nature of the benefits are unintended. One can analyse until the cows come home but I would say that a variety of music was fundamental to me in my home from very early on. What can actually happen in unfamiliar face to face conversation is that the visual side of everything can feel too intense. I think I realised some decades in that any such intensity was essentially in place of the fact that given instinct there would be music accompanying discourse. These days I probably do "silence" more than I have ever done and it isn't necessarily for the best. I'm happy to let in barking dogs, the sound of the rain and that sort of thing but mostly that is not the backdrop and what one gets from beyond the window is banging and crashing and screaming and diktat and motors and goodness knows what else.

[MrGongGong]

Although Roger Scruton, despite referring to the vital need for young people to be given opportunities to take up musical intruments, made no mention of this, the fact that so many young people who have never seen or heard such an instrument being played and therefore assume that musical sounds are produced only electronically in rather the same way as some people who've never encountered fresh fruit, meat and vegetables in the round assume that food is somehow produced in plastic bags or cartons (not so many such people, admittedly, but...), illustrates the disadvantage at which they are placed.

Hummm

Not sure about this.
There are so many myths around young people and music that i'm inclined to be rather suspicious of these kind of statements and supposed "facts".

Whether music education is of high quality and stimulates wider listening and curiosity is, of course, another matter.

[Beef Oven!]

Hummm

Not sure about this.
There are so many myths around young people and music that i'm inclined to be rather suspicious of these kind of statements and supposed "facts".

Whether music education is of high quality and stimulates wider listening and curiosity is, of course, another matter.

Tell 'em Gongers.

It's great that people like you are in touch with the kids. All those bloody stereotypes about youngsters, so prejudiced. If the kids are united, they will never be divided, eh?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Supermarkets are actually among the good guys in the world of piped music.

Waitrose never has it.
Booths never has it.
Tesco doesn't have it except in December (which means I go to Waitrose).
Most Sainsbury's doesn't have it except in December, though its Stoke-on-Trent seems to be an exception.
Aldi doesn't have it.

Lidl? I don't know.

Asda does have it.
Morrison's does have it and it's loud and annoying.

[jean]

The Co-Op have it.

And so, surprisingly, do M & S.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The Co-Op have it.

And so, surprisingly, do M & S.

Ah, yes. The Co-op is one of the worst offenders. They seem to like the highly percussive stuff.

M & S claim "all our customers like it". (Morons)

[Beef Oven!]

And so, surprisingly, do M & S.

But don't allow clapping between movements

[ahinton]

Hummm

Not sure about this.
There are so many myths around young people and music that i'm inclined to be rather suspicious of these kind of statements and supposed "facts".

As I pointed out, these were not Roger Scruton's statements but my own; if you think that putting young people into environments in which they see and hear people paying musical instruments and encouraging them to have a try at it themselves is either a bad thing or at least something that's not especially necessary, then be my guest; yes, there are myths such as you mention and where Roger Scruton seemed to miss out here is in not mentioning that so many young people do take up musical instruments and we'd not have an NYO or NYJO if they didn't.

[ahinton]

But don't allow clapping between movements

Or, even worse still, don't allow movements between clapping, peut-être...

[Lat-Literal]

As I pointed out, these were not Roger Scruton's statements but my own; if you think that putting young people into environments in which they see and hear people paying musical instruments and encouraging them to have a try at it themselves is either a bad thing or at least something that's not especially necessary, then be my guest; yes, there are myths such as you mention and where Roger Scruton seemed to miss out here is in not mentioning that so many young people do take up musical instruments and we'd not have an NYO or NYJO if they didn't.

It's late.

Big support for Nordoff-Robbins but not everyone is manually dexterous, nor are most ever likely to write some kind of an opera. Music appreciation is very fine in it's own right and an equal discipline. Ironically, it is Morrisons where the "vibe" one gets from staff is humane and it feels like stepping back into a lovelier time. I have set foot into Lidl once. Never again. I realised all hype is closely associated with nightmare. Yes, we do M and S and Waitrose and rate them highly but the basics have to be bought elsewhere and in an originally northern supermarket paradise where humanity is enhanced by "Have I Told You Lately" on strict rotation. Was the comment about Roger being a holocaust denier true?

Quote -

"My life divides into three parts:

In the first I was wretched; in the second ill at ease; in the third hunting...........He met his wife, Sophie: he fell off his horse, and she stopped to pick him up."So you see, if someone stops to pick you up while hunting, she's lost her day, because they've all gone, and you won't find them again. It was a sign of something more than just courtesy.""

Dare one ask if on reflection - especially at 71 - he feels he is the fox and piped music is his hunter?

Perhaps he needs less objectivity and more academic insight?

[Lat-Literal]

To be fair.....the guy has points to make in critique of 1960s reforms - "the unmentionables" - but he is so of a stereotype and cliched and unbalanced he does it all a disservice. On women - 'The disappearance of female modesty and sexual restraint has made it hard for a man to believe, when a woman yields to his advances, that her doing so is a special tribute to his masculine powers, rather than a day-to-day transaction, in which he, like the last one, is dispensable.' I might have some subtle alignment with some aspects on the changing role of women for better and worse. The sheer male egotism is extraordinary and crashes all he is trying to say. No wonder with blokes like him there was a revolution!

For the record, I do believe in starting with the permissible, there are questions about the advisable which may vary according from person to person, there are correct legislative angles and then there is the crucial matter of the culturally domineering. The latter is without exception driven economically and pretends it isn't thereby convincing the susceptible. I don't know whether that is philosophy. I have no interest in calling myself the big philosopher any more than I ever accepted the label "expert" even in work. No one is an expert!

[P. G. Tipps]

No one is an expert!

Precisely ... not even ahinton!

Regarding Mr Scruton I have nothing but admiration for the gentleman. If nodding one's head almost constantly on reading his wise words is a sign of approval then I plead guilty, m'lud.

In the days of absurd notions like 'equality' and 'gender balance', and the like, Mr Scruton's views are refreshingly straightforward and courageous and, indeed, are much less 'stereotypical' than the predictable, knee-jerk howls of protest from those who apparently believe the gentleman has no right to express an honest opinion if it in any way differs from their own.

In my very humble opinion Mr Scruton deserves a knighthood for services to Reason, way beyond the call of duty, but, of course, Mr Cameron would be appalled at the very suggestion and would much rather hug a hoodie, or be known as the first PM to introduce transgenderism to the House of Commons, than do anything of the kind.

Talking of whom, the Prime Minister's selection of "music" on D.I.D was even more execrable (if that were at all possible) than that of the First Minister of Scotland.

Oh, right on cue, the PM has just popped up on radio to give the country his daily lecture ...

[Quarky]

Regarding Mr Scruton I have nothing but admiration for the gentleman. If nodding one's head almost constantly on reading his wise words is a sign of approval then I plead guilty, m'lud.

the Prime Minister's selection of "music" on D.I.D was even more execrable (if that were at all possible) than that of the First Minister of Scotland.

Oh, right on cue, the PM has just popped up on radio to give the country his daily lecture ...

Being an expert may not be a useful measure, but we can at least try to be objective. Thank you for bringing David Cameron's musical tastes to my attention. These may be in-line with John Whittingdale's tastes (Telegraph):

He may well be the only Culture Secretary who is as comfortable in the front row of an AC/DC concert as at a Prokofiev recital.

“I love TV, I love film, I love music,” he says. “I always have done. My tastes in all of them are pretty broad. I occasionally think about what might be my top 10 records and it ranges from Prokofiev’s Romeo and Juliet to Deep Purple’s Knocking at Your Back Door.

“I do have a love of rock music – I’m seeing AC/DC in a couple of week’s time.

“I’m going to the Roundhouse tonight. I went there for something called Sham’s Last Stand which was Sham 69 when I was about 22. I went to see the Buzzcocks there, I’ve seen Deep Purple there.” "

On the basis of which, I conclude that David Cameron is highly unlikely to offer Mr. Scruton a job!

[MrGongGong]

As I pointed out, these were not Roger Scruton's statements but my own; if you think that putting young people into environments in which they see and hear people paying musical instruments and encouraging them to have a try at it themselves is either a bad thing or at least something that's not especially necessary, then be my guest; yes, there are myths such as you mention and where Roger Scruton seemed to miss out here is in not mentioning that so many young people do take up musical instruments and we'd not have an NYO or NYJO if they didn't.

You seemed to be suggesting that many "young people" haven't heard acoustic instruments?
This might be true if this was a discussion about the Contrabassoon or Cimbasso but schools are full of guitars, saxophones, clarinets, trumpets, violins etc etc

In my very humble opinion Mr Scruton deserves a knighthood for services to Reason,

I would have thought that maybe the first stage in "Reason" would be to try and be factually accurate where there are "facts" to be accurate about and not to simply make stuff up to support your opinions?


One has to ask the question why did the BBC ask this ill informed chap to do it in the first place?
I guess (like certain politicians) he is considered "good value" in the way he will spout.
It's a shame because there have been some really interesting explorations of acoustic ecology (which is what he seems to be on about) in the last 10 or so years and plenty of articulate folk able to talk about it on the radio.

[P. G. Tipps]

I, too, share your surprise (in my case most welcome) that the BBC asked the 'ill-informed chap to do it in the first place', MrGG.

On that at least we are in full agreement!