The Tyranny of Pop Music

[ahinton]

The point of "Muzak" (https://www.press.umich.edu/8718/elevator_music) isn't the volume but the context and the intended effects

To the extent that it mustn't be deafening, yes but, as I wrote above, it has at least to be audible above the other sounds in which it is relayed otherwise its very point is lost.

Elevator music does not elevate, as no doubt Elliott Carter would have agreed!...

And what is this "emotional effect" of which you speak anyway?

Er - sorry, I don't understand the question or, for that matter, what prompted you to ask it; Are you denying that music should have such or are you just trying to wind up cergtain contributors to this thread?(!)...

Terrible thing this modern fad for background music

OK, they didn't have it in Brahms' day (as SG might say) - at least not relayed through speakers - but it's hardly "modern". I recall reading (though I cannot now recall the specific source) who one musician complained that, in some of the great houses in England, they had music to accompany almost every social activity and that eventually they have it in the smallest rooms; this was well before even the birth of Max Reger of the notorious critics and smallest rooms barb, because the complainer was Chopin...

[MrGongGong]

MrGongGong - in reply to my statement "I think it is true to say that the emotional effect of any music is enhanced by increased volume", of which there is of course a limit, you replied:-

"No It's not"

Well there's one way to test that. If the sound engineer at a pop concert gives the acoustic instruments only the same amplification classical accoustic instruments would get at that venue (which usually means none, or subtle adjustments), and the drums and electric instruments have to adjust their volumes appropriately, and there is no complaints …… well …. what could I say?

That's not a test of anything (apart from the return of your foil hat theory)

How about you go to hear a concert of Clavichord music (or Feldman) and it's amplified to the level that would be appropriate for a metal band?

"Any" music?

(Mr Hinton puts this much better than I do)

[MrGongGong]

Er - sorry, I don't understand the question or, for that matter, what prompted you to ask it; Are you denying that music should have such or are you just trying to wind up cergtain contributors to this thread?(!)...

Given that this thread was prompted by a piece by someone who is described as a philosopher, I was merely questioning whether the understanding of the phrase "emotional effect" is understood in the same way by the participants.

but it's hardly "modern"

Precisely.... all those minstrels in their galleries chugging on and on so we can't concentrate on our Blawmanger.

[P. G. Tipps]

As with most of our social ills, look no further than our addiction to the worst aspects of American life rather than the best.

We are even giving our little storms human names now. What really astonishes me is that it took the Met Office so long to realise that this was one strange Americanism it had previously failed to copy.

Back on topic, when I was young and stupid rather than the currently more aged variety, I refused to enter drinking establishments which didn't possess a jukebox, so I can hardly complain now,

The ubiquity of pop-music today could be down to the fact that so many retail and media managers are still boys and girls rather than men and women.

So we shouldn't be too surprised that this is reflected in much of modern society though, as mentioned some time ago on another thread, I do have have a septuagenarian relative who still loves to bop around his bedroom to the sound of Elvis Presley & The Beatles. The poor chap once innocently asked me what music I liked. I'll never forget that quizzical, blanker-than-blank look when I responded accordingly.

Maybe it's just folk who are the real problem and not any particular sort of music ...

[NatBalance]

- but how would such responses be enhanced in listeners when, say, the finale of Mahler's Ninth Symphony is played on a recording at one level and then played again at a higher level? I think that you are quite mistaken in your argument here.

But if volume does not alter the emotional effect of music is there any point in a volume control dial on your radio? Why do people use the volume control to adjust it so that they can 'hear it'? What is the point of amplifying pop music? Incidentally I think pop music is usually over amplified.

How about you go to hear a concert of Clavichord music (or Feldman) and it's amplified to the level that would be appropriate for a metal band?

I don't see why there should be any difference in the amplification of pop and classical. What's good for one is good for the other. I don't want to hear a violin louder just because it is playing jazz instead of classical, or a clavichord louder just because it is playing heavy metal instead of Bach. Tradition dictates that it should be, but is that right? I think amplification should be judged on the venue not the type of music.

As for 'any' music being used as muzak or background music, when I get up in the mornings I usually have Radio 3 on very quietly, and yes, at that volume even Beethoven's 5th could come on and because I've got it on very quietly it is not going to make me start moving to the music so much? I'm not saying such music is ideal as background music even if it is turned to a quiet volume. The ideal music for background music is of course music that is composed as such, but if volume does not have an emotional effect what is the point of expression in music? Forte .. piano?

[MrGongGong]

But if volume does not alter the emotional effect of music is there any point in a volume control dial on your radio?

I can think of several points without going anywhere near "emotional effect"

Incidentally I think pop music is usually over amplified.

WHERE?
In what context?

I don't see why there should be any difference in the amplification of pop and classical. What's good for one is good for the other.

Just think about that for a moment then put some HP sauce in your muesli (what's good for one type of breakfast is good for the other)

[Quarky]

Gosh, some interesting discussion going on here. Let me have my two penny worth.

what exactly is muzak?

A definition I have found is "Recorded music that is played quietly and continuously in public places, such as airports, hotels, and shops, to make people feel relaxed". Muzak has to be music that does not create strong emotion, either neutral or relaxing. I do not think such music is bad music, it is just a different type of music, in fact I think it is absolutely brilliant music, but what constitutes such music? Does it have to actually be composed as such, or can any music be used as muzak?

Think about the amplification of pop music. Why is pop music always amplified loud and recorded to that it is loud? I know what many will say; it has to be in order the get anything out of it. I totally dissagree with that view. I think it is true to say that the emotional effect of any music is enhanced by increased volume. Of course there are limits, but if you take the extreme and play a piece so quietly that only the loud parts are just barely heard and the quiet parts are inaudible and then gradually increase the volume, I think it cannot be denied that the louder the volume gets the more emotional effect the music will have on the listener, until at some point it will get too loud and start driving them bonkers.

This reasoning is stating that the quieter music is played the less and less emotional effect it will have on the listener, therefore I suggest that any music could become muzak if it is played sufficiently quietly enough.

NatBalance - a lot of sense in your posts , possibly more than that of Roger Scruton's talk.

However there seems to be a contradiction in that you are addressing your posts to an extremely knowledgeable group, whereas your views of loud/quiet music appear to concern a listener who is not paying attention to the music, either because their musical tastes are gauche ( a young teenager for example) or someone who is busy doing something else - shopping or traversing an airport terminal.

In your spectrum, there is four gradations - bonkers loud (Xenakis' metal drum composition for example), loud, quiet and bonkers quiet (4' 33" for example). I understand you are involved with a local music radio station that plays classical music. I don't see how your views on loudness can be applied to classical music (which is often amplified in subtle ways).

[MrGongGong]

As with most of our social ills, look no further than our addiction to the worst aspects of American life rather than the best.

:

But don't you just love "Man vs Food" (in a way that makes you feel slightly dirty but smug at the same time?)

Maybe it's just folk who are the real problem and not any particular sort of music

Spot on
What we need is a test to weed out the "wrong'uns"

[doversoul1]

OK, they didn't have it in Brahms' day (as SG might say) - at least not relayed through speakers - but it's hardly "modern". I recall reading (though I cannot now recall the specific source) who one musician complained that, in some of the great houses in England, they had music to accompany almost every social activity and that eventually they have it in the smallest rooms; this was well before even the birth of Max Reger of the notorious critics and smallest rooms barb, because the complainer was Chopin...

In defence of Table Music

Yes, music accompanied every event and activity in the days of minstrels, Telemann and Vivaldi. Whilst the people who attended the events in those days may not have listened every note with great concentration, the very fact that music was there was highly valued because the rest of the world was Silent*. That, in my view, what distinguishes Table Music from modern background music.

...because the complainer was Chopin...

Well, he would, wouldn’t he? It was his music that was undervalued (so he must have felt)

*music-wise, that is.


NatBalance

But if volume does not alter the emotional effect of music is there any point in a volume control dial on your radio?

Classic

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

[ahinton]

In defence of Table Music

Yes, music accompanied every event and activity in the days of minstrels, Telemann and Vivaldi. Whilst the people who attended the events in those days may not have listened every note with great concentration, the very fact that music was there was highly valued because the rest of the world was Silent*. That, in my view, what distinguishes Table Music from modern background music.

One might apply a similar argument to the daily performances of the Pump Room Trio in Bath; ostensibly there to "accompany" the partaking of morning coffee and afternoon tea, that fact that people there see the musicians performing makes some difference and the fact that they often go to listen to their playing accompanied by coffee or tea rather says it all, really - and what they play could not be described as "muzak" by any stretch of any sane person's imagination!

Well, he would, wouldn’t he? It was his music that was undervalued (so he must have felt)

That wasn't actually the point that he was making!

[french frank]

The sheer quantity (and range) of contemporary popular/pop music sold and played must hide the percentage of people who dislike it. If I see that there will be 'live music' offered at an event, that will be enough to put me off instantly. Going out somewhere to hear someone else's choice of music?

[MrGongGong]

If I see that there will be 'live music' offered at an event, that will be enough to put me off instantly. Going out somewhere to hear someone else's choice of music?

Do you prefer "dead" music?

Of course going out to hear "someone else's choice of music" can be one of the most enjoyable and wonderful experiences (or one of the worst).

[doversoul1]

Do you prefer "dead" music?

Of course going out to hear "someone else's choice of music" can be one of the most enjoyable and wonderful experiences (or one of the worst).

That all depends on who that someone else is and opposite to ‘live music’ is ‘recorded music’ (here goes a dictionary addict ). Yes, I do guess what you are getting at but still.

Poor Nat. Nobody seems to stick to his burning question about the volume dial.

[oddoneout]

It would be extremely easy to live every day without music/musak.

How?