The Tyranny of Pop Music

[Lat-Literal]

I did not seek to suggest - nor, I suspect, did Roger Scruton (although of course I cannot speak for him on this or anything else) - that other kinds intrusive noise in public environments such as those that you mention are in any sense necessarily more desirable or less offensive in principle than enforced "muzak"; the differences between them, however, include but are by no means limited to the fact that the other such noises are made by individuals and add up to something larger than each individual noise-maker might have sought wilfully to intend, whereas piped "muzak" is the outcome of a deliberate and calculated cynical ploy on the part of those who foist it upon its victims. That difference is, I think, fundamental; add to it the fact that incessant piped "muzak" with very little rhythmic/melidoc/harmonic content ultimately risks undermining its victims responses to real music that challenges the ear, heart and mind and the fundamentaltiy of that difference becomes yet more apparent, I think. Music is designed to appeal to and challenge the emotions and the intellect; "muzak" seems intended to do pretty much the opposite.

Well, I just return to the point about being selective. My local Tesco doesn't have music or muzak. Morrisons has either or both. If someone doesn't like music or muzak but prefers Morrisons to Tesco, they have to balance the pluses and minuses. Nowhere is ideal. I don't think what is done is necessarily willful other than in the "ear" of the beholder. I happen to find that Van Morrison in Morrisons takes the edge off those who push their trolleys round in a way that suggests that they are the only people in the place and no one should inadvertently be in their path. We don't know the challenges many employees face. No doubt pub staff develop their own strategies for calming irritated or aggressive customers.

Music I don't like is a sound I can "tune out from" unless it is on full blast. "One Direction" are so alien to me, I wouldn't even be aware of them warbling above the vegetables. That is because (a) I have clarity in what interests me in music and what doesn't and (b) I am so pro music I think it's good for folk even if I don't recognise bits as music myself.

[ahinton]

Well, I just return to the point about being selective. My local Tesco doesn't have music or muzak. Morrisons has either or both. If someone doesn't like music or muzak but prefers Morrisons to Tesco, they have to balance the pluses and minuses. Nowhere is ideal. I don't think what is done is necessarily willful other than in the "ear" of the beholder. I happen to find that Van Morrison in Morrisons takes the edge off those who push their trolleys round in a way that suggests that they are the only people in the place and no one should inadvertently be in their path. We don't know the challenges many employees face. No doubt pub staff develop their own strategies for calming irritated or aggressive customers.

Music I don't like is a sound I can "tune out from" unless it is on full blast. "One Direction" are so alien to me, I wouldn't even be aware of them warbling above the vegetables. That is because (a) I have clarity in what interests me in music and what doesn't and (b) I am so pro music I think it's good for folk even if I don't recognise bits as music myself.

What you omit to do here is provide your view (assuming that you have one) as to why you believe that your local Tesco (and other public places) eschews "muzak" whereas your local Morrisons (and other public places) don't; whatever your take on this might be, however, would you not at the very least accept that there is some different motivation at work in these two contrasting cases? Someone has consciously to have decided to relay the stuff where it gets relayed and someone else has had to make a similar decision not to do so in places where it isn't relayed. There is, after all, no law to determine that anyone able to relay such stuff should or should not do so. I therefore feel bound to take issue with your assertion that "what is done" in regard to its provision "is [not] necessarily willful other than in the "ear" of the beholder", because "muzak" doesn't turn itself on; someone has to decide to do this and then proceed.

[MrGongGong]

Is it really worth listening to old Scrote again?
Last time I heard his ramblings it wasn't very good for my blood pressure

I nearly had a listen but i'm inclined to agree (based on past experience) with Jean in #10
BUT will give it a go if it's worth bothering with ?

[ahinton]

Is it really worth listening to old Scrote again?

Only you can decide!

Last time I heard his ramblings it wasn't very good for my blood pressure

If that's the case, mightn't lots of other things also be bad for it? Anyway, until and unless you do listen to it, how can you be sure that its contents are "ramblings"?

I nearly had a listen but i'm inclined to agree (based on past experience) with Jean in #10

Even if you are so inclined, do bear in mind that (a) you do not have to agree (or disagree) with jean but (b) jean has at least written he view based upon having actually listened to it!

BUT will give it a go if it's worth bothering with ?

Again, only you can decide; you don't, however, have to listen to it all if you find that it encourages your systolic and diastolic to chase one another competitively in their respective efforts to reach the highest figure possible!

[MrGongGong]

That's probably more or less what I would have said Alastair

[ahinton]

That's probably more or less what I would have said Alastair

Alistair, actually - but don't let either that or what we might both have said discourage you from giving it a go (and it's barely 10 minutes, after all!)...

[MrGongGong]

Alistair, actually - but don't let either that or what we might both have said discourage you from giving it a go (and it's barely 10 minutes, after all!)...

Ok Al i'll give it a go (starting at a reasonably healthy 135/86)

[Lat-Literal]

What you omit to do here is provide your view (assuming that you have one) as to why you believe that your local Tesco (and other public places) eschews "muzak" whereas your local Morrisons (and other public places) don't; whatever your take on this might be, however, would you not at the very least accept that there is some different motivation at work in these two contrasting cases? Someone has consciously to have decided to relay the stuff where it gets relayed and someone else has had to make a similar decision not to do so in places where it isn't relayed. There is, after all, no law to determine that anyone able to relay such stuff should or should not do so. I therefore feel bound to take issue with your assertion that "what is done" in regard to its provision "is [not] necessarily willful other than in the "ear" of the beholder", because "muzak" doesn't turn itself on; someone has to decide to do this and then proceed.

Noted.

[MrGongGong]

180/150

Ignorant, wrong and superficial IMV

A few quotes that struck me

"Rhythm is the sound of life" ???? Yeah right

“Round and round go the empty lyrics” …..."Bimm Bamm Bimm Bamm" ? (i'm not sure he meant these ones?)

Nice to know that Metallica play pop music

Lady Gaga Poker Faceis on one note so is obviously BAD …. hummm that's a shame I used to like the end of Verdi's requiem

Dreadful load of received wisdom and conflation of taste and value.

As others have said he really is out of his depth when talking about Silence (Cage was right, get over it)

He also commits what (in my book) is a terrible mistake in considering music to be a "language" (AGAIN .... table, horse)

[ahinton]

180/150

Do you have any medication to bring it back down again? Nice to know that you had a BP monitor to hand when listening!

A few quotes that struck me

"Rhythm is the sound of life" ???? Yeah right

So was Nielsen off his trolley when he said that music is the sound of life?

“Round and round go the empty lyrics” …..."Bimm Bamm Bimm Bamm" ? (i'm not sure he meant these ones?)

He didn't specify which ones he meant, but would you say that there are none remotely fitting his description in the field of "pop" music?

Lady Gaga Poker Faceis on one note so is obviously BAD …. hummm that's a shame I used to like the end of Verdi's requiem

!!! And one might also conclude that RS wouldn't compete on Strictly Dumb Prancing is he had to do a routine to Jobim's One Note Samba...

As others have said he really is out of his depth when talking about Silence (Cage was right, get over it)

So Scruton's wrong about silence and Cage was right; where might you think Beethoven stood on the subject?

He also commits what (in my book) is a terrible mistake in considering music to be a "language" (AGAIN .... table, horse)

Well, it is a communicative force; whether or not one therefore calls it a "language" is nevertheless open to debate...

[doversoul1]

180/150

Too late. I was going to say Keep Out. Health Warning (re: blood pressure).

He is completely mixed up. Is this the level of Radio 4 these days?

[MrGongGong]

Too late. I was going to say Keep Out. Health Warning (re: blood pressure).

He is completely mixed up. Is this the level of Radio 4 these days?

It's ok now (have whisky and La Monte Young)

[doversoul1]

It's ok now (have whisky and La Monte Young)

Good. But whisky?

By the way, is anyone going to answer Nat’s question?

I'm not sure what he means by pop music. Is he including popular classical? Like Vivaldi being played on hold on the telephone, and classical music is also used as background music in some cafes.

[MrGongGong]

Do you have any medication to bring it back down again? Nice to know that you had a BP monitor to hand when listening!

Yes (see previous post)

So was Nielsen off his trolley when he said that music is the sound of life?

I don't know but suspect he had thought about it a bit more than Scrote

He didn't specify which ones he meant, but would you say that there are none remotely fitting his description in the field of "pop" music?

Of course there are, but there are plenty in "Classical" music (without having to go anywhere near Malvern)

!!! And one might also conclude that RS wouldn't compete on Strictly Dumb Prancing is he had to do a routine to Jobim's One Note Samba...

One has to be grateful for small

So Scruton's wrong about silence and Cage was right; where might you think Beethoven stood on the subject?

Scruton is wrong because he trots the word out without really saying what he means, and as has been pointed out there is LESS of the music he objects to now than there was several years ago.

Well, it is a communicative force; whether or not one therefore calls it a "language" is nevertheless open to debate...

So is sharp blow to the skull with a blunt instrument but that doesn't make it a "language" any more than a table is a horse.

[ahinton]

It's ok now (have whisky and La Monte Young)

Good - but La Monte Young?...