"So-called ‘Atonal’ Music Has Just Been In A Minor All Along" - Discuss....

[MrGongGong]

[Nick Armstrong]

The thread suggests 95% of forum members are Sagittarians or Capricorns. On topic, no idea!

It's all water off this duck's back - I'm an Aquarian.

[ahinton]

It's pretty obvious that the piece is a spoof and, if it were otherwise, it would be very shoddy journalism indeed; it doesn't even seize on the opportunity to quote Schönberg's famous (but I think as yet unsourced) remark about there still being plenty of fine music to be written in A minor. That said, I do like the "So-called 'Atonal' Music" of the thread title...

[Lat-Literal]

It's all water off this duck's back - I'm an Aquarian.

Ah yes, and private research tells me that another esteemed member is too. I am merely that one in the Ascendant and the moon is in flipping anxiety-prone Virgo.

Not that I believe in any of it or have gone into it in any depth.

Can we simply agree that every forum member was born in a winter month as only winter births are musical - and consider where atonality sits in the karmic wheel?

[ahinton]

Ah yes, and private research tells me that another esteemed member is too. I am merely that one in the Ascendant and the moon is in flipping anxiety-prone Virgo.

Not that I believe in any of it or have gone into it in any depth.

Can we simply agree that every forum member was born in a winter month as only winter births are musical - and consider where atonality sits in the karmic wheel?

Speaking as a Libran Democrat (ahem) to whom the notion of all twelve semitones (yes, I know about other tuning systems, but let's keep it relatively simple for now!) being equal to one another, I would point out that, although not ever member of this forum is based in UK, many are and there are many winter births in UK because it has so many winter months; what that has to do with atonality, "so-called" or otherwise, is another matter, however - as is also the relationship between your karmic wheel and the circle of fifths, peut-être...

[Nick Armstrong]

[Lat-Literal]

Speaking as a Libran Democrat (ahem) to whom the notion of all twelve semitones (yes, I know about other tuning systems, but let's keep it relatively simple for now!) being equal to one another, I would point out that, although not ever member of this forum is based in UK, many are and there are many winter births in UK because it has so many winter months; what that has to do with atonality, "so-called" or otherwise, is another matter, however - as is also the relationship between your karmic wheel and the circle of fifths, peut-être...

There is also a genetic component. Without any shadow of a doubt, blue eyed people like pastel shades more than do brown eyed people.

The key question is what is the aural composition of the person who produced the article - shape of the ears etc!!!

[Beef Oven!]

Speaking as a Libran Democrat (ahem) to whom the notion of all twelve semitones.........

Red rag to a GongGong

[Beef Oven!]

Speaking as a Libran Democrat (ahem) to whom the notion of all twelve semitones (yes, I know about other tuning systems, but let's keep it relatively simple for now!) being equal to one another, I would point out that, although not ever member of this forum is based in UK, many are and there are many winter births in UK because it has so many winter months; what that has to do with atonality, "so-called" or otherwise, is another matter, however - as is also the relationship between your karmic wheel and the circle of fifths, peut-être...

Rissoles

[Serial_Apologist]

Surely - and semi-seriously - the atonal would rationally be at the centre of the wheel so the entire exercise in the link in the OP starts from the wrong premise. To my mind, it is a suburban-centric perspective and you may have heard what that sort of thing is like with all of its limitations. There is also a genetic component. Without any shadow of a doubt, blue eyed people like pastel shades more than do brown eyed people. The key question is what is the aural composition of the person who produced the article - shape of ears etc.

"Allo allo allo", said the prostitute as she opened the parcel just presented to her by the artist Vincent van Gogh, "wot's this ear?"

[ahinton]

Rissoles

Can't quite see the relationship between these and either karmic wheels or circles of fifths, actually...

[Lat-Literal]

Can't quite see the realtionship between these and either karmic wheels or circles of fifths, actually...

Totally and utterly out of my depth.

Let's try this one and you did ask me to try to construct something so this is from my recesses.

Atonality is the absence of key or tonal centre but the circle of fifths is, quote "fundamentally a discrete structure, and there is no obvious way to assign pitch classes to each of its points". Also, unlike the karmic wheel it isn't a continuous circle. A vacuum encourages inward motion. Haziness round the edges does the same because it isn't a solid enough line on which to to move clearly even if there was the ability for continuous movement which there isn't. There is no such thing as centrifugal force. It is centripetal force which leads to outward movement as a diversion from central inertia. That presupposes there is in contrast the guarantee of movement on the outer as well as in the outward movement from the centre which is true of the karmic wheel as it is clear and continuous. It isn't true of the circle of fifths. Ignorance is at the centre of the karmic wheel on the assumption that there is no such thing as inertia and circular movement is a given. But structurally the nature of the "circle" of fifths as earlier described is such that the atonal cannot be separated and it will always be engaged in interplay which essentially draws the atonal back inwards. The atonal sits in the karmic wheel as two-way movement on the spokes between centre and outer. I've just made this up. It is probably total rubbish. Now I am going to end my contribution here unless anyone thinks there is anything in it of any note which I really doubt.

I suppose the philosophical question you may ask is why atonality - a great mark of progress - hasn't ever progressed to the point where it has replaced the tonal centre. It was a jolting movement - both seismic and generational. It can still jolt on the fault lines but having been done, it would require something else to create another seismic move forward.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think Cali's gone into a Pythagorian Coma.

[ahinton]

Totally and utterly out of my depth.

Let's try this one and you did ask me to try to construct something so this is from my recesses.

Atonality is the absence of key or tonal centre but the circle of fifths is, quote "fundamentally a discrete structure, and there is no obvious way to assign pitch classes to each of its points". Also, unlike the karmic wheel it isn't a continuous circle. A vacuum encourages inward motion. Haziness round the edges does the same because it isn't a solid enough line on which to to move clearly even if there was the ability for continuous movement which there isn't. There is no such thing as centrifugal force. It is centripetal force which leads to outward movement as a diversion from central inertia. That presupposes there is in contrast the guarantee of movement on the outer as well as in the outward movement from the centre which is true of the karmic wheel as it is clear and continuous. It isn't true of the circle of fifths. Ignorance is at the centre of the karmic wheel on the assumption that there is no such thing as inertia and circular movement is a given. But structurally the nature of the "circle" of fifths as earlier described is such that the atonal cannot be separated and it will always be engaged in interplay which essentially draws the atonal back inwards. The atonal sits in the karmic wheel as two-way movement on the spokes between centre and outer. I've just made this up. It is probably total rubbish. Now I am going to end my contribution here unless anyone thinks there is anything in it of any note which I really doubt.

I suppose the philosophical question you may ask is why atonality - a great mark of progress - hasn't ever progressed to the point where it has replaced the tonal centre. It was a jolting movement - both seismic and generational. It can still jolt on the fault lines but having been done, it would require something else to create another seismic move forward.

Well, there's always the scientific factor of the harmonic series, which is not only naturally occurring but also found in something that I think most of us here could accept as tonal input.

"Atonality" - insofar as it might be believed to exist in its own right (whatever that might or might not be) - hasn't replaced "tonality" (and nor should it or need it) because it offers the possibility of expanding the overall expressive capacity of musical language; who in his/her right mind would not want that to happen?

[ahinton]

I think Cali's gone into a Pythagorian Coma.

Either that or all this "so-called" "atonal" music is actually in Z minor...