Haydn's keyboard trios

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18015

    Haydn's keyboard trios

    Haydn wrote a larger number of almost everything than almost any other composer, including symphonies, string quartets, keyboard trios and curiosities such as baryton trios. At the time there was a trend to move away from the use of harpsichords towards the fortepiano and eventually something similar to modern pianos.

    Do we know whether the keyboard trios were written for harpsichord, fortepiano, or simply a generic keyboard, or whether they were intended to be played on a piano like instrument? Often we see references to Haydn's piano sonatas, or Haydn's piano trios, yet it is possibly likely that some of these pieces were not written for piano, or that they were written for keyboard - with the player making a decision as to what instrument to use for performance. We can see that Mozart was keeping up with developments in instrument manufacture and design, and certainly many of his sonatas would have been written for piano, and similarly for Beethoven. What do we know about Haydn's use of keyboards?
  • Tony Halstead
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 1717

    #2
    Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
    Haydn wrote a larger number of almost everything than almost any other composer, including symphonies, string quartets, keyboard trios and curiosities such as baryton trios. At the time there was a trend to move away from the use of harpsichords towards the fortepiano and eventually something similar to modern pianos.

    Do we know whether the keyboard trios were written for harpsichord, fortepiano, or simply a generic keyboard, or whether they were intended to be played on a piano like instrument? Often we see references to Haydn's piano sonatas, or Haydn's piano trios, yet it is possibly likely that some of these pieces were not written for piano, or that they were written for keyboard - with the player making a decision as to what instrument to use for performance. We can see that Mozart was keeping up with developments in instrument manufacture and design, and certainly many of his sonatas would have been written for piano, and similarly for Beethoven. What do we know about Haydn's use of keyboards?
    If the words 'crescendo' or 'diminuendo' are printed in an 'Urtext' / scholarly edition then the intended keyboard instrument must surely be a fortepiano.

    Comment

    • rauschwerk
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 1481

      #3
      Beginning with the Auernbrugger sonatas, published in 1780, Haydn uses more frequent dynamic indications than before. The Artaria edition bears the description 'Per Il Clavicembalo, o Forte Piano'. This is regarded at a tentative beginning of a fortepiano idiom in Haydn's sonatas. There are not yet any cresc. or dim. markings. The same, I guess, would therefore be true of keyboard trios after 1780 - Landon 18 onwards (beware - the Hoboken numbering is non-sequential).

      Of course, growth of ownership of the newer instrument would have spread over a good many years. In 1790, Haydn advised the talented amateur Marianne von Genzinger (who possessed a wing-shaped harpsichord known as a Flügel) to purchase a Schanz fortepiano. He wrote a sonata (Hob.XVI:49, known to pianists as 'the little E flat' do distinguish it from the great Hob.XVI:52 in the same key) for her.

      However I think we should assume that, whatever Haydn's preference, his keyboard sonatas and trios would have been performed on whatever instrument was to hand.

      (This information was gleaned from the Oxford Haydn Companion)

      Comment

      • vinteuil
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 12815

        #4
        Originally posted by rauschwerk View Post
        However I think we should assume that, whatever Haydn's preference, his keyboard sonatas and trios would have been performed on whatever instrument was to hand.
        ... yes, Haydn was nothing if not pragmatic.

        A good way to experience Haydn's developing use of the keyboard is through the marvellous sets by Christine Schornsheim -



        and Tom Beghin -

        Comment

        • rauschwerk
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 1481

          #5
          I was much amused by this anecdote from Charles Rosen:-

          "The musicologist Oliver Strunk told me many years ago that he sold his harpsichord in exchange for a piano, giving the reason that it was too hard to read Strauss tone poems at the harpsichord."

          Comment

          • Dave2002
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 18015

            #6
            Originally posted by rauschwerk View Post
            Beginning with the Auernbrugger sonatas, published in 1780, Haydn uses more frequent dynamic indications than before. The Artaria edition bears the description 'Per Il Clavicembalo, o Forte Piano'. This is regarded at a tentative beginning of a fortepiano idiom in Haydn's sonatas. There are not yet any cresc. or dim. markings. The same, I guess, would therefore be true of keyboard trios after 1780 - Landon 18 onwards (beware - the Hoboken numbering is non-sequential).
            So by the time Haydn came to London and was writing music such as the well known "Gypsy Rondo" Trio it is likely that he was assuming a fortepiano would be used.

            Re the Christine Schornsheim and Beghin sets - I already have those. Currently I'm listening to some trios played on modern instruments, and I can't help feeling that they would actually sound better on more 'period" style instruments - fortepiano rather than modern piano. Maybe it's just the performers I'm hearing right now - chosen more or less at random - The Vienna Piano Trio - but the actual sound is just so bland and characterless. The performances are OK though. I don't really think the limitation is due to the performances/performers.

            Are there any decent recordings with anything which might sound more interesting? I have the Beaux Arts set already - which has been universally acclaimed - but if it's the sound of modern instruments and particularly the keyboard which I'm currently finding lacking then I need something else!

            Comment

            • vinteuil
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 12815

              #7
              Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
              . Currently I'm listening to some trios played on modern instruments, and I can't help feeling that they would actually sound better on more 'period" style instruments - fortepiano rather than modern piano. Maybe it's just the performers I'm hearing right now - chosen more or less at random - The Vienna Piano Trio - but the actual sound is just so bland and characterless. The performances are OK though. I don't really think the limitation is due to the performances/performers.

              Are there any decent recordings with anything which might sound more interesting? I have the Beaux Arts set already - which has been universally acclaimed - but if it's the sound of modern instruments and particularly the keyboard which I'm currently finding lacking then I need something else!

              ... I recommend this :



              and also :

              Comment

              • Dave2002
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 18015

                #8
                Trio 1790

                I'll check out the other one too.

                Comment

                • Beef Oven!
                  Ex-member
                  • Sep 2013
                  • 18147

                  #9
                  I have a selection of 4 CDs from the 1790 Trio on the cpo label. Sublime recordings!

                  In fact I'll play one of the CDs, now!

                  Comment

                  • Dave2002
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 18015

                    #10


                    You asked - but why? "was" seems to be the appropriate verb.

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                    • kea
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2013
                      • 749

                      #11
                      The Trio 1790 set is among the best chamber music recordings I know of, by any composer. Another good recording is of some of the late trios by the Trio Goya on Chandos. And whichever ones were done by Beths/Bylsma/Immerseel.

                      Comment

                      • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                        Gone fishin'
                        • Sep 2011
                        • 30163

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gault
                        You asked - but why? "was" seems to be the appropriate verb.
                        I suspect BeefO might have done some "non-U" thinking?

                        [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                        Comment

                        • vinteuil
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 12815

                          #13
                          Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                          I suspect BeefO might have done some "non-U" thinking?

                          http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2800038/
                          ... we always knew he might be a sucker for Ayn Rand -



                          A less likely, but more attractive, figure -

                          Comment

                          • Beef Oven!
                            Ex-member
                            • Sep 2013
                            • 18147

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                            I suspect BeefO might have done some "non-U" thinking?

                            http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2800038/
                            That's John Galt.

                            Comment

                            • Beef Oven!
                              Ex-member
                              • Sep 2013
                              • 18147

                              #15
                              Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
                              ... we always knew he might be a sucker for Ayn Rand -

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Galt
                              Ahem, Gault.

                              Comment

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