Slow down for crying out loud - extreme tempi in baroque music

[Barbirollians]

I wonder if I am the only forumite who finds themself tearing their hair out over extreme tempi in baroque music . All too often it seems in HIPP modern instrument versions than anywhere else though some period performances seem to suffer from the same problems . Listening the other day to a lovely old ECO/Pinnock CD " Alla Rustica " on DG Archiv I found no sign of such batty tempos .

One of the worst examples I can think of is Hilary Hahn's mad speeds the outer movements for her Bach Violin Concerto recording on DG . What is notable , however, is that the tempo for the violin and oboe concerto whilst far from slow is much better judged .

I have started going through my collection and picking out CDs for a second chance that I did not like much first time - before they find their way to the charity shop and so far this is on its way to Oxfam !

[cloughie]

I wonder if I am the only forumite who finds themself tearing their hair out over extreme tempi in baroque music . All too often it seems in HIPP modern instrument versions than anywhere else though some period performances seem to suffer from the same problems . Listening the other day to a lovely old ECO/Pinnock CD " Alla Rustica " on DG Archiv I found no sign of such batty tempos .

One of the worst examples I can think of is Hilary Hahn's mad speeds the outer movements for her Bach Violin Concerto recording on DG . What is notable , however, is that the tempo for the violin and oboe concerto whilst far from slow is much better judged .

I have started going through my collection and picking out CDs for a second chance that I did not like much first time - before they find their way to the charity shop and so far this is on its way to Oxfam !

What a good idea - must start a last chance box in my saloon!

[Pulcinella]

Rest assured that you are not alone, Barbs!

I have switched many such performances off, and/or not bought such CDs, however well praised they may be elsewhere.

For me, so much of the beauty and detail gets lost at such hectic speeds.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I wonder if I am the only forumite who finds themself tearing their hair out over extreme tempi in baroque music . All too often it seems in HIPP modern instrument versions than anywhere else though some period performances seem to suffer from the same problems . Listening the other day to a lovely old ECO/Pinnock CD " Alla Rustica " on DG Archiv I found no sign of such batty tempos .

It's simply a competition to see who can get away with the most bizarre performances, and to outdo the previous fastest recording.

Frustrated athletes?

[Serial_Apologist]

I wonder if I am the only forumite who finds themself tearing their hair out over extreme tempi in baroque music . All too often it seems in HIPP modern instrument versions than anywhere else though some period performances seem to suffer from the same problems . Listening the other day to a lovely old ECO/Pinnock CD " Alla Rustica " on DG Archiv I found no sign of such batty tempos .

One of the worst examples I can think of is Hilary Hahn's mad speeds the outer movements for her Bach Violin Concerto recording on DG . What is notable , however, is that the tempo for the violin and oboe concerto whilst far from slow is much better judged .

I have started going through my collection and picking out CDs for a second chance that I did not like much first time - before they find their way to the charity shop and so far this is on its way to Oxfam !

Not excessive tempi, no; but - and here's something I've been wanting to mention for some time - what I have been noticing in recent years is a tendency in slow or slow-to-medium tempi for string sections to lend each bowed note a sort of crescendo followed by a diminuendo, which en masse, or in overlapping imitations, I find to have a slithery, almost nausea-inducing effect on me. Is this an approximation to presumed 17th asnd 18th century practices? - because, if so, I am glad to have been introduced to music from the Baroque period before it became de rigueur, or it would have put me off permanently!

[doversoul1]

Barbirollians


[ed] revised

All too often it seems in HIPP modern instrument versions than anywhere else

Just forget them. There are many wonderful HIPP violinists whose names don’t make headlines.

[ardcarp]

It's called lozenge dynamics, SA, and I agree it can get irritating if taken to excess. I too am sometimes annoyed by the 'we're playing fast because we can' mentality, but I think to be fair some of the leading EM groups are starting to calm down a bit.

The most extraordinary thing is to compare the tempi of a Bach Passion played 75 years ago (full symphony orchestra) and now (about 7 players!), e.g. the final chorus of the St John, Ruht Wohl.

[DublinJimbo]

… what I have been noticing in recent years is a tendency in slow or slow-to-medium tempi for string sections to lend each bowed note a sort of crescendo followed by a diminuendo, which en masse, or in overlapping imitations, I find to have a slithery, almost nausea-inducing effect on me.

Yes, I've become aware of this too, and like it no better than you do.

[Serial_Apologist]

It's called lozenge dynamics, SA, and I agree it can get irritating if taken to excess.

Thanks for that explanation, ardy. I'll look it up.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

what I have been noticing in recent years is a tendency in slow or slow-to-medium tempi for string sections to lend each bowed note a sort of crescendo followed by a diminuendo, which en masse, or in overlapping imitations, I find to have a slithery, almost nausea-inducing effect on me. Is this an approximation to presumed 17th asnd 18th century practices?

There was some discussion about this on the old BBC boards, but I can't recall hearing any justification for it.



It's just extremely slow vibrato

[kea]

I actually kind of love extreme tempi. An example of which I'm quite fond (although I suspect few others would be) is a recording of three of Bach's concerti (BWVs 1052R, 1056R and 1043) by Elfa Rún Kristinsdottir & the Solistenensemble Kaleidoskop, not strictly HIP although using period instruments. The tempi, particularly in the Double Concerto, lend the music a sort of hyperexpressive intensity which could not be achieved by phrasing alone, I think, as well as emphasizing the dance origins of Bach's music (eg the Adagio of 1052 actually sounds like a passacaglia, instead of a funeral march). Of course their playing is also incredibly extraverted and, at times, violent, which probably contributes to this effect.

Wrt 'Ruht' wohl', I have the Parrott/Taverner Consort recording from 2002, which is 8:02, comparable to some recordings from 50+ years ago (Harnoncourt '65, Richter, etc). Gardiner's 2003 recording is similar as is Stephen Layton's from 2013. The 'normal' tempo these days is 6-7 minutes, but then that was also an option back in the day under eg Peter Schreier. And yes back then there were also performances that lasted 11 minutes, but honestly I have no idea why someone would want to listen to one of those

[Serial_Apologist]

There was some discussion about this on the old BBC boards, but I can't recall hearing any justification for it.

It's just extremely slow vibrato

I can't find any references under Google; I'm wondering if "lozenge dynamics" derives from use of the term "sound envelope" which, if I've got it right, I heard Stockhausen talk about with reference to his Studie II. Perhaps it is a term from electronic music usage that is being used retrospectively to justify the practice in Baroque music.

[Pulcinella]

I can't find any references under Google; I'm wondering if "lozenge dynamics" derives from use of the term "sound envelope" which, if I've got it right, I heard Stockhausen talk about with reference to his Studie II. Perhaps it is a term from electronic music usage that is being used retrospectively to justify the practice in Baroque music.

Or is the term a verbal representation of adjacent cresc decresc symbols: <>?
By analogy (sort of) with the 'curlew' symbol that Britten introduced.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It doesn't help when a high-minded editor adds an Italian term for which there isn't a shred of evidence the composer used or wanted. Based on the surviving manuscripts, he wrote:




However, Roger Fiske thought he knew better and wrote this:

[rauschwerk]

One of the worst examples I can think of is Hilary Hahn's mad speeds the outer movements for her Bach Violin Concerto recording on DG . What is notable , however, is that the tempo for the violin and oboe concerto whilst far from slow is much better judged .

In actual fact, Miss Hahn's tempi are only a little faster than those taken by Standage and Pinnock. I don't find them to be either mad or batty.