An Eclectic Music Show with a Difference

[NatBalance]

Now then, I wasn't going to post this untill I'd finished with my other post but then I realised 'Wait a minute, folks on this forum should be interested in the actual content of the present episode of the show because our guest was a classical composer, and that will change after next Wednesday'. The content of the show is not what this post is about but if anyone would like to discuss that then so be it. The presenter says he is a popular composer but you'll find it very difficult to find anything about him, or examples of his music, on the Internet. I don't know how popular the Welsh composer Brain Hughes is, he might only be popular locally, but then as far as I know he may be very popular within the classical music community. I'd be interested to know how many folks here have heard of him.

http://www.calonfm.com/105fm/?page_id=28681

I think he has some things to say that folks here might find interesting, but that is not why I am posting this thread. The reason for this thread is because I am interested to know if anyone will notice anything unusual about the show itself. There is nothing unusual about the format or content except that we try to encourage an eclectic choice from our guests, something from both the classical and pop world (or whatever the best way of saying that is) but we can only go so far with that given the title of the show, and this edition of the show is all classical, and serious classical aswell, which of course folks on this forum won't mind at all, not sure about the listeners to the radio station though, they might be turning off in droves. I feel it's almost like putting this kind of show on Radio 1. It's a fortnightly show and after next Wednesday it will change.

It's only a community radio station run by volunteers, except for two paid administrators, and I am new to the world of sound engineering so don't analyse too closely the quality of the recording. That's not what I am asking you to listen to. I'm not going to tell you yet what to look out for, but a clue is in my forum name and some of you might already know what that stands for, or perhaps can guess. You won't have to listen to the whole show in order to hear what is different about it, something I will be bold enough to say you won't find on any other show or station, you can just skip through and you might notice it. I have a feeling that many of you will not like it, on the other hand you might not even notice any difference.

Rich

[french frank]

How long is the programme? (It sounds a bit like R3's Private Passions???)

[NatBalance]

How long is the programme? (It sounds a bit like R3's Private Passions???)

Yes, I should have mentioned, it is supposed to be an hour but being as there is no show on after us they do allow us to over run and this one we just didn't want to edit anything so I think it is about 1hr 10mins.

[doversoul1]

Yes, I should have mentioned, it is supposed to be an hour but being as there is no show on after us they do allow us to over run and this one we just didn't want to edit anything so I think it is about 1hr 10mins.

Us and We?

[french frank]

Yes, I should have mentioned, it is supposed to be an hour but being as there is no show on after us they do allow us to over run and this one we just didn't want to edit anything so I think it is about 1hr 10mins.

Thanks. The format does seem to be like PP - where the idea (at least at the beginning) was to have guests who were, predominantly, NOT from the classical music world, sometimes from the worlds of jazz, film music &c but often not connected with music at all. The most enjoyable ones from my point of view were when this uncovered someone who was, surprisingly, very knowledgeable about classical music and introduced me to works which were unfamiliar. These would be laced with two or three other choices (the Beatles, jazz &c). But I gave up on the programme when the musical choices seldom interested me. What I didn't want was discussions about the guest's life and career - we have that on Essential Classics too.

I would say a totally eclectic choice is only of interest to listeners who have totally eclectic tastes.

[MrGongGong]

"Crown Court" at 58:34" appears to be in Mono
and everything else sounds a bit like it's been put through a stereo widening process?

I guess your "big reveal" is going to be something about the relative volumes of the speaking and the music?

Brain Hughes? sic



another bow tie foil hatter?

[NatBalance]

"Crown Court" at 58:34" appears to be in Mono
and everything else sounds a bit like it's been put through a stereo widening process?

I guess your "big reveal" is going to be something about the relative volumes of the speaking and the music?

Well done Mr G. It's not just between music and speech but everything, an orchestra should be louder than a string quartet. I am trying to get a more natural balance of volumes but it cannot be done perfectly due to the constraints of the radio station. The current policy on volumes is basically that everything should be the same volume at its loudest. This means that if a solo guitar is played one moment and then an orchestra and choir the next, the loudest volume the orchestra and choir will attain will be no louder than the accoustic guitar Even in my teens I used to jump when the presenter came on the same volume as a hundred piece orchestra and at first I didn't know why I was jumping. Then I realised the volume balances were not natural, so as a consequence I have been continually adjusting the volumes all my life. When remote control came along it was a godsend for me, not just for music but for adjusting the continuity announcer and adverts on the TV aswell.

I'm afraid there has to be a lot of compression on big orchestral pieces and I guess many folks would not like that but in order the keep the dynamics you have on Radio 3 (which still has to do some compression aswell) the presenters voice would have to be too quiet if I did not compress the louder music. What I am aiming for is to try and make it so that everything sounds as though it is coming from the same distance (near enough, or comfortable enough). It means that instead of thinking 'Can the listener hear the loud parts of this piece?' I am asking 'Can the listener here the quiet parts?'.

If I am doing it right what you should end up with is a volume balance where the quiet sections are more audible, and the loud sections are actually loud. It means that, for example an acoustic violin, should sound the same volume no matter whether it is playing solo, is part of an orchestra, a blues band, folk group, country, string quartet, whatever, as long as that violin is front stage (and no special effect is required) it should sound the same volume. Whether I am able to achieve that and still attain a good balance so that the speech can be heard properly is my challenge. The trouble is if folks are used to hearing, or want to hear orchestral and choral music at very quiet volumes then that means they will have trouble hearing the spoken word on our show.

[doversoul1]

I think you should have pointed out clearly in your original post on what aspect of the programme you need the listeners’ feedback. Alternatively, you should have posted this on the Techie Board rather than on the Talking about Music Board.

Assuming this to mean the music or the programme,

anything unusual about the show itself

and as this suggests that you are not looking for feedback on technical issues.

I am new to the world of sound engineering so don't analyse too closely the quality of the recording. That's not what I am asking you to listen to

many of us could have wasted an hour listening to the programme looking for what you may be expecting to hear or to find out.

Forum names are not usually thought to be good source for information about the members.

I only spend a couple of minutes skipping through the programme, or I would have been very annoyed.

[NatBalance]

Alternatively, you should have posted this on the Techie Board rather than on the Talking about Music Board.

I did wonder if this was the correct board

many of us could have wasted an hour listening to the programme looking for what you may be expecting to hear or to find out.

That's why I put this bit:-

You won't have to listen to the whole show in order to hear what is different about it, something I will be bold enough to say you won't find on any other show or station, you can just skip through and you might notice it.

[MrGongGong]

Well done Mr G. It's not just between music and speech but everything, an orchestra should be louder than a string quartet. I am trying to get a more natural balance of volumes but it cannot be done perfectly due to the constraints of the radio station. The current policy on volumes is basically that everything should be the same volume at its loudest. This means that if a solo guitar is played one moment and then an orchestra and choir the next, the loudest volume the orchestra and choir will attain will be no louder than the accoustic guitar Even in my teens I used to jump when the presenter came on the same volume as a hundred piece orchestra and at first I didn't know why I was jumping. Then I realised the volume balances were not natural, so as a consequence I have been continually adjusting the volumes all my life. When remote control came along it was a godsend for me, not just for music but for adjusting the continuity announcer and adverts on the TV aswell.

I'm afraid there has to be a lot of compression on big orchestral pieces and I guess many folks would not like that but in order the keep the dynamics you have on Radio 3 (which still has to do some compression aswell) the presenters voice would have to be too quiet if I did not compress the louder music. What I am aiming for is to try and make it so that everything sounds as though it is coming from the same distance (near enough, or comfortable enough). It means that instead of thinking 'Can the listener hear the loud parts of this piece?' I am asking 'Can the listener here the quiet parts?'.

If I am doing it right what you should end up with is a volume balance where the quiet sections are more audible, and the loud sections are actually loud. It means that, for example an acoustic violin, should sound the same volume no matter whether it is playing solo, is part of an orchestra, a blues band, folk group, country, string quartet, whatever, as long as that violin is front stage (and no special effect is required) it should sound the same volume. Whether I am able to achieve that and still attain a good balance so that the speech can be heard properly is my challenge. The trouble is if folks are used to hearing, or want to hear orchestral and choral music at very quiet volumes then that means they will have trouble hearing the spoken word on our show.

Oh dear
It's hard to know where to start isn't it?

I'll get kicked off for posting the Magritte pipe again

but bear in mind

There is NOTHING "natural" about recorded music. It's ALL electronic music.
and

"an acoustic violin, should sound the same volume no matter whether it is playing solo, is part of an orchestra, a blues band, folk group, country, string quartet, whatever, as long as that violin is front stage (and no special effect is required) it should sound the same volume. "
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO it shouldn't and NO it doesn't when you are there in the room.

Do you understand ANYTHING about acoustics?

READ this http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780198166085.do

(used to be the recommended text)

then spend some time with someone who really DOES know about this stuff (including how compression really works and how phase relationships work) then after a few years you might have a tiny idea of what it's about.

But if you enjoy compressing the "sh*t" out of music then I guess you can use low bitrates and get millions of "songs" onto your MP3 player

Here is a string quartet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sffh9spQopA

here is an orchestra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZZ0DYIkaP8

an orchestra should be louder than a string quartet

Yeah right?

[french frank]

I'll get kicked off for posting the Magritte pipe again

But if you promise that will be the most serious of your delinquencies …

Apologies, I did not realise that we were to focus on the sound

[doversoul1]

NatBalance #9

That's why I put this bit:-

You won't have to listen to the whole show in order to hear what is different about it, something I will be bold enough to say you won't find on any other show or station, you can just skip through and you might notice it.

This does not stop well meaning people to listen to the whole programme to see if they can find something so unusual about it, especially with, as it’s turned out to be, a misleading and rather pretentious thread title for a thread about technical deficiencies.

[NatBalance]

Here is a string quartet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sffh9spQopA

here is an orchestra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZZ0DYIkaP8

Now come on Mr G, don't be silly. When I said "an orchestra should be louder than a string quartet" I didn't mean when the orchestra's playing quietly and the string quartet's playing loudly. I don't know. Where's that blasted taxi? :)

There is NOTHING "natural" about recorded music. It's ALL electronic music.

Don't understand relevance of this. Surely the aim is to make it sound like the real thing? Unless you want a special effect.

"an acoustic violin, should sound the same volume no matter whether it is playing solo, is part of an orchestra, a blues band, folk group, country, string quartet, whatever, as long as that violin is front stage (and no special effect is required) it should sound the same volume. "
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO it shouldn't and NO it doesn't when you are there in the room.

Oh I think I know something of such things but blimey, how much detail do you want to go into? All I am trying to do is get the volume balances better than they are at present. You are referring to the finer details, the volume of a violin being soaked up by the volume of other instruments and all that. Crumbs, I suppose you are also thinking of things like hard surfaces and soft surfaces, a violin would sound louder in the former than the latter. I would be very surprised if Radio 3 sound engineers took such things into account at all. All they are bothered about is whether the loudest part of any piece of audio goes into the red.

[NatBalance]

This does not stop well meaning people to listen to the whole programme to see if they can find something so unusual about it, especially with, as it’s turned out to be, a misleading and rather pretentious thread title for a thread about technical deficiencies.

I don't know Dover, you're hard to please. I always know I'm going to be in trouble when I see you've answered

[MrGongGong]

Now come on Mr G, don't be silly. When I said "an orchestra should be louder than a string quartet" I didn't mean when the orchestra's playing quietly and the string quartet's playing loudly. I don't know. Where's that blasted taxi? :)

You completely misunderstand the way in volume works in music.

Don't understand relevance of this. Surely the aim is to make it sound like the real thing? Unless you want a special effect.

It is the "Real Thing" it's a REAL RECORDING
Trust me the recording is just as "real" as if you were in the room with the instrument playing acoustically
(and the Wombles should make an appearance here don't you think? )

Oh I think I know something of such things but blimey, how much detail do you want to go into? All I am trying to do is get the volume balances better than they are at present. You are referring to the finer details, the volume of a violin being soaked up by the volume of other instruments and all that. Crumbs, I suppose you are also thinking of things like hard surfaces and soft surfaces, a violin would sound louder in the former than the latter. I would be very surprised if Radio 3 sound engineers took such things into account at all. All they are bothered about is whether the loudest part of any piece of audio goes into the red.

You need to go into massively more detail than your tiny scratch of the surface.
How many radio 3 engineers have you met?
They know more than you could ever dream there is to know about this.
Don't make things up to fit what you imagine is the case it just comes across as wilfully ignorant (" All they are bothered about ").

Do you understand how multiband compression works (for example)?