An Eclectic Music Show with a Difference

[doversoul1]

NatBalance

I've done better than state my definition, I've audibly demonstrated that with our show

I can’t help suspecting that you are really having us on. It looks from this that you don’t understand what definition is, which is hard to believe even if I am actually reading what seems to be the evidence.

The video is an example that shows the volume of 16 violins does not necessarily sound louder than one violin. Yes, this is the ‘nature’ of concerto, as you pointed out yourself. So what’s the problem?

Are you, by any chance, talking about the balance of the volume level between the presenter’s voice and recorded music being played on radio programmes? If that’s the case, what are frequencies got to do with it, and all this talk about orchestra and lute etc? Or are you talking about live broadcast, which is something completely different?

And I don’t, in general, notice any obvious imbalance in volume between the presenter’s voice and recorded music on Radio3, certainly not in a spatial sense.

[ed.] What on earth do you mean by this? Or are you thinking about mixing?

Concerto type pieces have been in existence before amplification but yet some sound engineers still instist on amplifying the soloist in a concerto

Well, I suppose some people like Telemann and Vivaldi, so anything can be possible…

[NatBalance]

Lat-Literal - thanks very much for the link to Resonance FM. I've dipped into it and it sounds very interesting indeed, I'm listening to it as I type this actually. I'll pop it into my favourites. Thank you.

I was struck by how your station was attempting something different

Actually it's just me who's doing this, not the station.

I accept that I questioned in earlier posts your references to height and I stick by what I said but it is difficult to convey the points I'm making other than by using height terms.

I can't find where you mention heights. Was this on my other thread 'Classical - Jazz - Pop'?

I must state that I find Mr G and Dover's comments on this thread truly remarkable. I feel like I am trying to argue the case for everything being the same scale on a model railway i.e. everything their natural size relative to each other.

But no, wait a minute, a standard gauge locomotive can sometimes be the same size as a car. The locomotive could be further away.

What on earth do you mean by this? Or do you not know what amplification means?

"Concerto type pieces have been in existence before amplification but yet some sound engineers still instist on amplifying the soloist in a concerto"

A concerto is a piece for solo instrument and orchestra. An orchestra could quite easily drown out the solo instrument if it wanted to but of course it does not. Concertos have been in existence since before amplification, or perhaps I should say electronic amplification, and yet the solo instrument has not been drowned out by the orchestra in all those years, but yet come electronic amplification and you will sometimes (not sure about live perfomances) hear on recordings that the solo instrument is amplified relative to the orchestra. You can hear that when the orchestra plays sections on its own, it just has no volume.

I suggest that the sound engineer who amplifies the soloist relative to the orchestra in a concerto is more used to recording pop music ….. uuuh … shock … horror! I have a perfect and extreme example of what I mean.

Does anyone know of Jon Lord, in the group Deep Purple? He is a classically trained musician and has written classical pieces and they are really good quality stuff, but the trouble with the prog rock scene was that they did not respect the natural balance of volumes of all the acoustic instruments. Realise this can only apply to acoustic instruments. The natural volume of an electronic instrument can be anything. Anyway, here is a typical example of what I mean. In a concerto the orchestra quietens down when the soloist is required to be heard. In the pop scene they have never heard of such a way to balance volumes. If the soloist needs to be heard, amp them up.

This is the second movement of Jon Lord's Concerto for Group and Orchestra. It is a brilliant piece, I've heard it live and I highly recommend the 3rd movement. This is the 2nd movement and it is the only movment with a vocalist. Now get ready to stick your fingers in your ears when the vocalist comes on, he comes on soon after 4:40:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTHS6EMPeVo

And then listen to the orchestra coming in later at forte volume 8:35. Surely you can see now what I mean by a natural balance, or an unnatural balance as in this case. If that alteration of the volumes is suppose to be some kind of artistic license then its artistic value is a lost one on me.

Actually I don't think they have any need to amplify the soloist to this extreme anyway as I reckon Jon Lord has composed this piece like a classical concerto so that the orchestra will not drown out the vocalist if he's a more natural comparative volume.

[MrGongGong]

Here are a few non specialist things that might help you

http://www.musictech.net/2014/06/ten-minute-master-orchestral-recording/

http://blogs.online.berklee.edu/blog/2012/04/11/to-compress-or-not-to-compress-orchestral-and-film-music/\

(this is a blog so some of the folks might even be more confused than you appear to be )

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/163050-normalising-classical-music.html

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep03/articles/qa.htm

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=rTWzAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=levels+in+broadcast+classical+music&source=bl&ots=C2_OScMGan&sig=N0-JT42N-imug7PQYS5xVhiyhT0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIobLbtK_syAIVR04UCh1JFAcN#v=onepage&q=levels%20in%20broadcast%20classical%20music&f=false

But don't make the mistake of thinking that this is saying the same thing that you are.
You need to READ it

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb14/articles/loudness-war.htm

and something from a master of the art which talks about just a few of the things that engineers think about when making recordings.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/DeccaTree-TryggTryggvason.pdf

[doversoul1]

NatBalance

Thank you for the lecture on concerto. I think I am reasonably familiar with the form, and yes I agree with you that the form was in existence before amplification came about but only just over 300 years.

You seem to be using this forum as a blog and not a place for discussion or conversation (in ‘natural balance’ as you might say). I suppose nothing in the house rules to say that you can’t, but it is a pity, as this forum could offer you so much knowledge and advice if only you were willing to listen and engage in ‘proper’ discussion, for example, by stating your definition of, in this case, 'natural balance' or your question in regard to the subject and stay with it.

[NatBalance]

Well, I am finding it difficult to know what to say if you find the extreme volume of the vocalist in the Jon Lord piece nothing to comment on, but then it is the same as the volume of the presenter on R3 (and other stations). I'm not saying that the natural balance is perfect, especially for home listening, and car listening evening less so, adjustments do need to be made, but the job of the sound engineer should be to make those adjustments so subtle they are not noticed. Lummy, the first time I heard the volume of that vocalist compared to the orchestra I damn near jumped out of my skin. It's like the guy has crept up on you and sings right down your ear.

I also realise that special effects might be wanted in a piece, for instance a distant orchestra might be wanted, or a distant choir, like in Holst's Neptune. There is a Bertwistle piece which requires a loud amplified spoken word, but that's because it represents the voice of God. These are all special cases, I am not referring to such things and I don't see that the Jon Lord piece requires a distant orchestra or a 'voice of God' type vocalist.

Mr GG, on my other thread you suggested I do some kind of sound engineering course, I think you mentioned BTEC, well actually last year I did pass a course in live sound and I thought it was originally advertised as a BTEC course but on the certificate it states RSL Level 2 Extended Certificate for Music Practitioners. I know it's not hot stuff, but it's a start.

It's always difficult to find a perfect analogy but I think the model railway analogy is pretty good:-

QUESTION: How would a sound engineer build a model railway?

ANSWER: The sound engineer would look at a locomotive and then upon looking at a car at the same scale would exclaim "Cripes, a car is way too small compared to a locomotive. You can't see the detail. I'll have to have the cars at a bigger scale … and look at the size of a church! Gee wizz, can't have that!".

Mr GG, thank you very much for taking the time to find all those usefull links. Can't see the relevance to the Jon Lord piece but they are very relevent to my work on the radio station and if I want to record a live orchestra (ah yes, the Decca Tree, would love to experiment with that), I should be so lucky, but you never know. Thank you.

I notice there are other folk who think like me, quote from the forum discussion:-

"Also, for a recording of violin or piano, you don't want your peaks at 0db anyways, so I wouldn't normalize. Save your 0db peaks for symphony orchestras going crazy. That way your recordings sound real, relative to other classical recordings."

Excellent advice. That's what I am doing, but I am not just keeping solo instruments such as the violin below peak levels, I am also keeping the spoken word below peak.

Oh yes, I've heard about the loudness wars. Bonkers.

You seem to be using this forum as a blog and not a place for discussion or conversation (in ‘natural balance’ as you might say).

Uuuuuh? Are we to be reduced to tweeting?

[doversoul1]

NatBalance

RSL Level 2 Extended Certificate for Music Practitioners

Oh, well done! Good for you. Keep on learning. You still have a lot to learn to match MrG who has, I guess, Level 8 or an equivalent in the same or similar qualification.

[MrGongGong]

That's right matey
IGNORE all the things written by people who know what they are talking about and quote a random comment from a blog.

Your "analogy" is hopeless
but stick with it if you like

If you look for them there will always be folks who "agree with you"
you might like to join these deluded folks, there are millions of them

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread992508/pg1

and ignore this

https://acousticengineering.wordpress.com/2013/12/13/pitch-shifting-to-432-hz-doesnt-improve-music/

after all, what does HE know anyway?

I'm done with this
Best GG

[NatBalance]

Oh, well done! Good for you. Keep on learning. You still have a lot to learn to match MrG who has, I guess, Level 8 or an equivalent in the same or similar qualification.

Thank you Dover. Oh yes, a long way to go to catch up with MrGG. If he's a lecturer wouldn't he just love it if I became one of his students? :)

Crumbs that pitch business MrGG linked is getting into some serious detail. I don't go into that much detail, don't even know if I prefer certain keys, or even how it is possible to find out.

[Lat-Literal]

NB

On Post 32 -

Good news re Resonance. I note the clip you posted was of your endeavour. My comments on "height" were probably on "Classical-Jazz-Pop". I still prefer a "standard(s)" gauge!

[gradus]

Nat, good luck in your tussle with the complications of acoustics. Perhaps it might be timely to mention that despite the reams of expert technical advice and strictures, there have been some truly mediocre recordings and sound broadcasts produced by experts in the field, as well as outstandingly good examples. In the end I imagine that even experts get better with practice.

[NatBalance]

My comments on "height" were probably on "Classical-Jazz-Pop". I still prefer a "standard(s)" gauge!

Can't remember that, I'll look it up.

Nat, good luck in your tussle with the complications of acoustics. Perhaps it might be timely to mention that despite the reams of expert technical advice and strictures, there have been some truly mediocre recordings and sound broadcasts produced by experts in the field, as well as outstandingly good examples. In the end I imagine that even experts get better with practice.

Thank you Gradus. Yes, even the experts can get it wrong and I think they can sometimes even miss out on a fundamental. I'm consentrating on the volumes at the moment. Our next show coming up has Mozart, Beethoven and Tchaikovski's 1812 along side Sting, Paul Simon and Don Mclean. My, what a challenge volumewise. I'm sure MrG would have penty of 'fingers in his ears comments' to say about the quality.

Actually, does anyone remember perhaps a decade ago now when Radio 3 had their own forum on the BBC web site? I contributed to that and I remember MrGG being on it then, and I also remember I brought this subject up then and there was someone who agreed with me that the presenters are too loud. Their forum name had 'Smith' in it. I wonder if he, or she, is still around. Couldn't see any members under the 'S's that fitted the bill.

[Quarky]

smittms? If so, I believe he retired from the board, possibly with an ear problem.

I listened to the first few minutes of your programme, Nat, and thought it was a very good local radio programme, with discussion between the lady presenter and the Composer.

But which b**** f**l turned the volume up on Schubert's 9th? I had to switch off immediately. I'm afraid that will be the reaction of most listeners, Nat.

[NatBalance]

smittms? If so, I believe he retired from the board, possibly with an ear problem.

I listened to the first few minutes of your programme, Nat, and thought it was a very good local radio programme, with discussion between the lady presenter and the Composer.

But which b**** f**l turned the volume up on Schubert's 9th? I had to switch off immediately. I'm afraid that will be the reaction of most listeners, Nat.

Smittms, yes, that's the fella. I see, ear problems. Yes, I'll be heading that way too at the volumes I listen to orchestral and choral music :)

Ah, so you like the volumes to be all the same. That's what folks are used to. The trouble with that is that the quiet sections are too quiet, and in a noisy environment inaudible, and the loud sections are not actually loud.

[Quarky]

Smittms, yes, that's the fella. I see, ear problems. Yes, I'll be heading that way too at the volumes I listen to orchestral and choral music :)

Ah, so you like the volumes to be all the same. That's what folks are used to. The trouble with that is that the quiet sections are too quiet, and in a noisy environment inaudible, and the loud sections are not actually loud.

Sorry Nat, the name was smittims, with two i's - a very knowledgeable person.

I guess it's probably been mentioned, and I'm just an absolute beginner in the audio arts, but Automatic Gain Control would seem an obvious alternative.

[NatBalance]

I guess it's probably been mentioned, and I'm just an absolute beginner in the audio arts, but Automatic Gain Control would seem an obvious alternative.

But wouldn't that make everything the same volume (at its loudest)? It brings up the quiet sections as well of course but when you are dealing with an orchestra the dynamics are so extreme there is only so much compression you can do. If you do not want the loud sections of an orchestral piece to actually be loud, but in fact no louder than the presenter, it means that those quiet sections are inevitably going to have to be quieter, unless you squash the orchestra until it is flat.