Lieder and Art Song for Beginners/Intermediates

[teamsaint]

I've got in a bit of a tiz here.
I'm not sure what he difference is between song,art song and lied.
Are lieder German and songs or art songs can be anything ?

useful little site here ER.

http://www.artsongupdate.org/Articles/What%20is%20Art%20Song.htm

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Are lieder German and songs or art songs can be anything ?

That's how I understood it, Edgey - so French Chanson, too (a sort of "Classical" version of the "Long Delayed" Thread).

And, as for your own bad experience of Lieder - prepare to have yer socks blown off with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IzI0vn8egw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TnK7tPTwHE

[EdgeleyRob]

useful little site here ER.

http://www.artsongupdate.org/Article...Art%20Song.htm

Thanks ts

[EdgeleyRob]

That's how I understood it, Edgey - so French Chanson, too (a sort of "Classical" version of the "Long Delayed" Thread).

And, as for your own bad experience of Lieder - prepare to have yer socks blown off with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IzI0vn8egw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TnK7tPTwHE

Thanks ferney,very nice
I'll raise you

[teamsaint]

and while we are on the subject, this astonishing and wonderful website is absolutely indispensable for those of us with nothing more than O level French.

http://www.lieder.net/lieder/get_text.html?TextId=7768

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thanks ferney,very nice
I'll raise you

- I have known and loved Silent Noon for over thirty-four years (one of my 21st birthday presents was the boxed set of Kathleen Ferrier's DECCA LPs - her version is on youTube, if you ever want to hear it).

[Mary Chambers]

I tend now just to call them all songs, whatever language they're in. I will say Lieder occasionally, but I think art song is a silly, meaningless and unnecessary expression. Is it used to distinguish them from pop songs?

Of course they can be in English. Britten is the best English song composer, and uses a huge variety of great poetry in his works. One of the problems with the peerless songs of, for example, Schubert is that the language is a barrier to many English-speaking people, and they really don't translate well. The words constitute half of all songs. A knowledge of languages is a huge advantage. I have a friend who loves Schubert songs and song cycles passionately, but she has no German at all. I often wonder what exactly she is listening to. It can't be same as what I hear.

[cloughie]

So does Isle of Wight

West Cornwall has its moments and places too, but on lieder I am largely with edge but there are bits of Schubert and more particularly R Strauss but I prefer them delivered by a good mezzo or alto.

I do like some of the 20th century British stuff - Bryn Terfel's Vagabond album and its sequel are good.
Oh yes and French stuff - got a couple of very nice Natalie Dessay CDs.
And does Ravel's Scheherazade count - that's a cracking work!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... on lieder I am largely with edge but there are bits of Schubert and more particularly R Strauss but I prefer them delivered by a good mezzo or alto.

... and, after Schubert's night of dreams, what better way to wake up than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYfn3jFtR5I

[cloughie]

... and, after Schubert's night of dreams, what better way to wake up than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYfn3jFtR5I

Yes ferney, but maybe done by Barbara Bonney or Felicity Lott, depending on whether you want piano or orchestral!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes ferney, but maybe done by Barbara Bonney or Felicity Lott, depending on whether you want piano or orchestral!

But ... but ... but ... YOU said you "prefer[red] them delivered by a good mezzo or alto"! Bonney and Flotty are Sopranos - and I gave you a Mezzo, finer example than whom there is none!


(I left out the orchestrated version in keeping with the idea of Lieder as a domestic Music-making activity. If I'd allowed myself the orchestra, you'd've had Glorious Gundula !)

[EdgeleyRob]

- I have known and loved Silent Noon for over thirty-four years (one of my 21st birthday presents was the boxed set of Kathleen Ferrier's DECCA LPs - her version is on youTube, if you ever want to hear it).

I'm sure I've got that on a cd (with some Purcell,Britten and other bits and bobs IIRC),no idea where it is though.

[LeMartinPecheur]

...French Chanson, too (a sort of "Classical" version of the "Long Delayed" Thread).

Not wishing to turn this into Pedants' Paradise but even though the standard French for 'song' is chanson, yer ackshuw French art song (Fauré, Debussy, Ravel, Duparc, Hahn territory) is properly called mélodie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9lodie ...

...even though there are plenty of mélodies entitled Chanson de or à [something or somebody] and none that I can think of called Mélodie de/à ... Graham Johnson and Richard Stokes' excellent French Song Companion supports this assertion in that the only title it lists beginning with the word Mélodie is Barber's Mélodies passagères ('Transitory Songs', 'Passing Art-songs', take your pick).

Which clearly doesn't count cos he wasn't French

Confusing innit?

EDIT Sorry the Wiki link isn't actually linking - have tried repasting it but still no good

This is the opening of the Wiki entry anyway: A mélodie is a French art song. It is the French equivalent of the German lied. Mélodies have been composed since the mid-19th century. A chanson, by contrast, is a folk or popular song.

[Roslynmuse]

French mélodie is something I listen to and study a great deal of the time and (imho) indispensable are:

Berlioz Les nuits d'été (Régine Crespin); La mort d'Ophélie (April Cantelo)
Gounod Ce que je suis sans toi (Souzay for preference) - I'm not a great fan of Gounod's songs, but that one is a gem
Fauré - so many to choose from! Après un rêve; the Cinq mélodies de Venise on poems by Verlaine; Nell, Les roses d'Ispahan, Les berceaux, Automne; and - if you like Fauré's later style - the cycle L'horizon chimérique (Charles Panzera)
Chausson - Le colibri, Sérénade italienne, Le temps des lilas
Duparc - any! But Phidylé is my favourite.
Chabrier - not really a mélodie, but his Ode à la musique is adorable!
Debussy - currently looking at the Cinq poèmes de Baudelaire; the Verlaine Ariettes oubliées and Fêtes galantes are wonderful too
Ravel - Shéhérazade, as mentioned above (Crespin again); Danco in the Trois poèmes de Mallarmé; Baker in the those too and also the Chansons madécasses.
Satie - the café-concert songs such as La Diva de l'Empire and Je te veux. There used to be a wonderful LP of Meriel and Peter Dickinson doing these.
Roussel - quirky! Sarabande is my favourite Roussel song, plus the Deux poèmes chinois Op 35 (Sarah Walker or Clare Croiza)
Poulenc - anything! 'C' is heart-breaking (Bernac and Poulenc), Hotel is gorgeous, Tel jour, tel nuit a fabulous cycle. Oh, and Le bestiaire (Jean-Christophe Benoit) is hilarious!

And then there's Messiaen and Dutilleux, including an orchestral song cycle - Le temps l'horloge - written as recently as 2008 for Renée Fleming

There's just SO much to discover!

[cloughie]

But ... but ... but ... YOU said you "prefer[red] them delivered by a good mezzo or alto"! Bonney and Flotty are Sopranos - and I gave you a Mezzo, finer example than whom there is none!


(I left out the orchestrated version in keeping with the idea of Lieder as a domestic Music-making activity. If I'd allowed myself the orchestra, you'd've had Glorious Gundula !)

OK, but They are sopranos with exceedingly nice voices and Morgen is written in the mezzo range. Yes JB is very good. Back to the domestic music-making, and I know from comments on these boards the marmite factor comes into play when it comes to vocals, the Bonney/Martineau RSt 4 Last is a CD which I like.