Classical - (Jazz) - Pop

[doversoul1]

NatBalance #228

OK. Here is the answer to your original question, summarised.

Jazz is usually ‘lumped together’ with classical music and not with pop music because pop music is manufactured for a mass market. Jazz and classical music are not. Also, Jazz, classical music and other kinds of music usually heard on Radio3 are often called art music but pop music is not. Pop music is a type of popular music that came into existence in the States in the early 1950s.

This is my wording but not my or anybody’s opinions. This is how things are (physical reality, if you like) and as for pop music, it’s part of social history.

You responded to this by saying that not all pop music was manufactured and some pop music was artistic. With this, you mentioned some groups that were what could be called progressive / experimental groups.

This shows that you do not understand that:
a) grouping music into art and other/commercial music has nothing to do with individual works’ artistic merit.
b) pop music is not the synonym of popular music.

Throughout the thread, you have amply demonstrated that you do not understand that you cannot have a discussion based on what you think with nothing to back it up.

You see, if you want have a discussion, a discussion type manner is really not good enough. It has to be discussion.

Still, as I have said many times, this thread has generated a lot of interesting posts which is a very good thing. It’s just pity that you are clinging on so tightly to your own ideas and way of thinking.

Ah well, I am beginning to feel terribly foolish, going on about it like this. I shall make this my last post on this thread but I am very much looking forward to seeing Master G’s list and how you respond to it.

All the best

[Beef Oven!]

Ah well, I am beginning to feel terribly foolish, going on about it like this. I shall make this as my last post on this thread...................

Don't be silly, keep going! This is what the forum's for!!!!!

It's a very interesting thread, I'm most intrigued!

[MrGongGong]

So here is a start at some music which Natty might not "like"
I've chosen things that I do have recordings of (not sure if I "like" all of these)
and started with the noise end of things

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQYfXlYMxes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fAM192cXDg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNgPvVPGyf0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypacXdOuzJw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEIc7YdSFpU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxggqnOBzqo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLzEgrHKxNM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZBnXf2FfJc

Like?
not like?
tasty?
not tasty?

[NatBalance]

I'll make you a list on one condition, which is that you aren't allowed to use the "it's not music" card.
OK

The trouble for me with 4'33" is that I can't see it as a piece of music. It's music, but not a 'piece' of music. Rather than an actual performance it is an instruction of when to start and stop listening to an already existing performance. The performer does not actually perform the music, they do not even conduct it. You see, the music is allways there. It is there before the 'performer' starts their watch, it is there in those few seconds after the audience has quietened down and before the stop watch is started and the piano lid opened, it is there between movements, it is there in those moments between when the stop watch is stopped and the audience start clapping. It is like having an orchestra on stage continually playing, then on comes John Cage, sits at the piano and starts his stop watch and opens the lid of the piano. I don't quite know what the audience are supposed to do when he closes the lid, the music is still going. As I stated before, ear plugs seem to be the only answer.

The butterfly one I like. That's a great idea. The performer is the butterfly, the person who opens the box I suppose you could call the conductor, trouble is they have no control over the performance after that. It's over to the performer after that, the performer then decides when the performance is over by either stopping performing (falling asleep or dieing perhaps) or exiting stage right (or left … or front, back, up, down). There is no instruction as to when to start and stop listening to the performance, there does not need to be, the performance itself has a beginning and end.

Doversoul

Jazz is usually ‘lumped together’ with classical music and not with pop music because pop music is manufactured for a mass market. Jazz and classical music are not. Also, Jazz, classical music and other kinds of music usually heard on Radio3 are often called art music but pop music is not. Pop music is a type of popular music that came into existence in the States in the early 1950s.

Remember that we have this confusing situtation were we have two names which have two meanings. The words 'classical' and 'pop' have two meanings. Classical music originally only meant the music between 1750 and 1820 (apparently) but now the name is also being used to name a whole bigger class of music, one of which is still called classical. The same situation exists with the word 'pop'. A big class of music is called pop music, and within that class there is type of pop music called pop music. Confused? You will be after this episode of …… (of what? Does anyone remember? Great TV series)

Anyway, back to the plot. The term 'pop' music in the above quotation is referring to the pop music genre that is within the pop music category (crumbs, is anyone following this?)

Remember the list I linked?:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popular_music_genres

The pop music referred to in the above quote I think is the pop music within this list, i.e.:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popular_music_genres#Pop

That is the truely mass market genre, which is why it is referred to as pop music. The other genres, such as folk, rock, blues, electronic, I suggest are just as much mass market produced as jazz. Perhaps in America I guess country music is probably just as much mass market music as actual pop music, I don't know, but I will dare to suggest that jazz is probably not the least popular or mass market amongst that list. If anyone can give some statistics I'd be interested to see them, as I stated in my OP I am not sure of my views, this is why I am here. Trouble is, even if someone does come up with some statistics that prove that jazz is the least popular of the popular music category, that still does not alter the fact that jazz sounds more like the other genres within the pop music category than it does classical and its rootes are more similar to the other pop genres rootes than to classical rootes. Am I wrong that jazz stems from traditional folk music, the folk music of New Orleans black people?

You responded to this by saying that not all pop music was manufactured and some pop music was artistic. With this, you mentioned some groups that were what could be called progressive / experimental groups.

Actually I responded by labelling ABBA and ELO as artistic music (which do come under the mass market pop genre), in fact I even labelled them high art, and I fully stand by that remark. Jazz and classical music may well often be called art music but I don't see how that actually makes them more artistic than ABBA. Making statements does not make something true. I had a go at giving my reasons why I think ELO's music is artistic, using their song One Summer Dream, post #190.

Ah well, I am beginning to feel terribly foolish, going on about it like this. I shall make this my last post on this thread but I am very much looking forward to seeing Master G’s list and how you respond to it.

All the best

Aaah, don't go! You'll have a job anyway, it's a bugger finding a taxi around here!

I will take it that you've got some great responses to my reply but watch out, I'll probably meet you again on another thread :)

Right, let's listen to the rest of Mr G's terrible music suggestions. I've heard the first one and love it. Very Steve Reich.

[MrGongGong]

The trouble for me with 4'33" is that I can't see it as a piece of music. It's music, but not a 'piece' of music. Rather than an actual performance it is an instruction of when to start and stop listening to an already existing performance. The performer does not actually perform the music, they do not even conduct it. You see, the music is allways there. It is there before the 'performer' starts their watch, it is there in those few seconds after the audience has quietened down and before the stop watch is started and the piano lid opened, it is there between movements, it is there in those moments between when the stop watch is stopped and the audience start clapping. It is like having an orchestra on stage continually playing, then on comes John Cage, sits at the piano and starts his stop watch and opens the lid of the piano. I don't quite know what the audience are supposed to do when he closes the lid, the music is still going. As I stated before, ear plugs seem to be the only answer.

The butterfly one I like. That's a great idea. The performer is the butterfly, the person who opens the box I suppose you could call the conductor, trouble is they have no control over the performance after that. It's over to the performer after that, the performer then decides when the performance is over by either stopping performing (falling asleep or dieing perhaps) or exiting stage right (or left … or front, back, up, down). There is no instruction as to when to start and stop listening to the performance, there does not need to be, the performance itself has a beginning and end.
.

John Cage 10 : Natty Dread 0

What's all this nonsense about "conductors" ?

Your "problem" seems to be that because you "can't see it as a piece of music" you decide that it can't be one.
Do you have to "see" everything?
I've never seen Australia

"As I stated before, ear plugs seem to be the only answer". to what question?
and if there is, as you suggest, a question there are more answers than you or I could imagine.

Were you not aware that music can exist outside the time frame we might use to contain it?

Of course it's always going on, talk to someone who understands Indian Classical music about Tala.

and as for

" I don't quite know what the audience are supposed to do when he closes the lid, the music is still going" ... The piece is over so they might clap, put their coats on, have a chat with the person next to them,shout enthusiastically, cheer, get up, lie down, go home, wave at someone, decide to go for a drink.... and so on. What do you normally do at the end of a piece? Of course the music is still going, it always has and always will be.

Right, let's listen to the rest of Mr G's terrible music suggestions.

Who said anything about "terrible" ?
They are things you might not "like".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think there might be a confusion between Music an its performance in Natty's "trouble with 4'33"" - all pieces of Music carry on after the performers have finished: the Mendelssohn Octet is playing now, whenever we choose to listen to it: it doesn't cease to exist once performers reach the end of the last bar, nor when we stop paying attention to it.

Sound becomes Music to us only when we listen to it - the Musical experience becomes greater the more attention we give to listening (whether or not we "enjoy" that experience is another matter).

[ahinton]

I think there might be a confusion between Music an its performance in Natty's "trouble with 4'33"" - all pieces of Music carry on after the performers have finished: the Mendelssohn Octet is playing now, whenever we choose to listen to it: it doesn't cease to exist once performers reach the end of the last bar, nor when we stop paying attention to it.

Sound becomes Music to us only when we listen to it - the Musical experience becomes greater the more attention we give to listening (whether or not we "enjoy" that experience is another matter).

Absolutely spot on! I don't know why it might be that some people seem unable or unwilling to grasp this elementary fact; Elgar, Busoni and Schönberg had their thoughts on this kind of thing in their different ways, Elgar perhaps most pointdly referring to music being "out there" to be discovered and Busoni independently echoing similar ideas about it in his take on the composer's rôle as being more that of diviner than inventor.

Also, in your notion of pieces carrying on after their performance has ended, what else should or could one expect? Audience responses do the same - sometimes for quite some while if the performance has been especially good (or bad!); why so if not because what's been listened to is being retained in the memory just as you'd hope that it would be.

[NatBalance]

WOW, thanks very much Gongers. They were brilliant. Listened to every one right through, except the 1 hour long Vomir and the 40 minute Sublime Frequencies. My views:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQYfXlYMxes

Yes, minimalism, love it. The first time I heard mimmalism was in the late 70s I think when I heard Steve Reich's Music for 18 Musicians and at first I thought 'Yes, it's good but I want it to change more significantly now', can't remember whether I stuck out the whole performance but remember later on when thinking back about it and tinkering on the piano I realised that 'Wait a minute, I've been doing minimalism myself on the piano, imrpovising, repeating a phrase and gradually changing it', but then I would go on to melody type music, I wouldn't keep doing it for 60 minutes, but the memory of 18 musicians remained in my mind and when I heard it again I enjoyed the fact that it only changed gradually. I grew to absolutely love the stuff and a couple of years ago heard 18 Musicians live (Manchester, Bridgewater Hall, June I think - anyone here there?). It was fantastic hypnotic music, I would go to another performance right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fAM192cXDg

Aaaauh, where's the rest of it? It was just getting good when it stopped.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNgPvVPGyf0

Oh, full marks for trying Mr G …. BUT, do you know what? I listened to the whole thing. It was getting very close to 'not like' with the sound that jarrs but that's mainly because I fear it's damaging my ears. I was thinking 'Yes, if he holds that for too long I no like' but then later on he did hold it for a long time, I think, unless my computer froze for a bit, and as long as it's not too loud that jarring pitch can be quite hypnotically groovy. There was always change, it was fascinating, I liked it but I cannot say I would like a repeat performance in the near future. Give it a couple of hours …. no … just kidding, need a gap of a few days I think but then I suppose any music has its limited play time beyond which you say 'No more, no more, I given in!'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypacXdOuzJw

Oh yes, very hypnotic. Lovely warm sound, and when it suddenly stops it does weird but wonderfull things to you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEIc7YdSFpU

Mmm, interesting, can't say I don't like it though, it just IS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxggqnOBzqo

Also interesting, kind of spacy, loved the bit near the end, all creepy and alien, still can't say I don't like it. Don't know why it's called feed back music. I associate feed back with that high pitch jarring sound that goes right rhough your head like Otomo Yoshihide was sometimes producing. Sounded more like distortion to me but then I'm not that experience in live sound yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLzEgrHKxNM

Like, but as above would not listen to a lot, although perhaps I could get addicted. Depends on mood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZBnXf2FfJc

Yes like. I will make time to listen to the whole of this sometime.

Bye the way Lat-Literal, I'm not the guy you are thinking of. I'm not on Digital Spy.

[MrGongGong]

Sound becomes Music to us only when we listen to it -

Indeed
I might go a bit further and consider sounds I haven't actually heard to be music.

What Jean-François Augoyard and Henry Torgue refer to as Phonomnesis:

This effect refers to a sound that is imagined but not actually heard. Phonomnesis (phonomnèse) is a mental activity that involves internal listening: examples include recalling to memory sounds linked to a situation, or creating sound textures in the context of composition.

http://xenopraxis.net/readings/augoyard_sonicexperiencecomplete.pdf

To me, the key thing is what "we" do either actively or even passively.

(http://www.discogs.com/Various-This-...elease/2304043)

Also, in your notion of pieces carrying on after their performance has ended, what else shold or could one expect? Audience responses do the same - sometimes for quite some while if the performance has been especially good (or bad!); why so if not because what's been listened to is being retined in the memory just as you'd hope that it would be.

[NatBalance]

Were you not aware that music can exist outside the time frame we might use to contain it?

Of course it can, but I don't see how that has any bearing on whether 4'33" is an actual piece of music or not, a composition. It is an instruction.

It has music within it, just as everyday life has music within it, just as music exists in your mind, but the point I am questioning is whether 4'33" is an actual piece of music, a composition.

[MrGongGong]

WOW, thanks very much Gongers. They were brilliant. Listened to every one right through, except the 1 hour long Vomir and the 40 minute Sublime Frequencies. My views:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQYfXlYMxes

Yes, minimalism, love it. The first time I heard mimmalism was in the late 70s I think when I heard Steve Reich's Music for 18 Musicians and at first I thought 'Yes, it's good but I want it to change more significantly now', can't remember whether I stuck out the whole performance but remember later on when thinking back about it and tinkering on the piano I realised that 'Wait a minute, I've been doing minimalism myself on the piano, imrpovising, repeating a phrase and gradually changing it', but then I would go on to melody type music, I wouldn't keep doing it for 60 minutes, but the memory of 18 musicians remained in my mind and when I heard it again I enjoyed the fact that it only changed gradually. I grew to absolutely love the stuff and a couple of years ago heard 18 Musicians live (Manchester, Bridgewater Hall, June I think - anyone here there?). It was fantastic hypnotic music, I would go to another performance right now.
.

aaah I now think I understand what you do.
This has nothing at al to do with Steve Reich (except in your head) or the "minimalism" box that you decide it fits into
what you appear to be doing is to hear something then make a comparative link and then feel you have somehow "sorted" what it is you are listening to.

[MrGongGong]

Of course it can, but I don't see how that has any bearing on whether 4'33" is an actual piece of music or not, a composition. It is an instruction.

It has music within it, just as everyday life has music within it, just as music exists in your mind, but the point I am questioning is whether 4'33" is an actual piece of music, a composition.

I'm not sure that Australia exists but i've met people who have been there and talked to people who tell me they are there (i've even had a Skype conversation where someone walked outside to show me the summer when my house was surrounded by snow).

I think you need to change your understanding of what a "piece" is and what a "composition" is.

Trust me, IT IS a piece and a composition... ask Mr Hinton if you like (and he is a REAL composer )

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I might go a bit further and consider sounds I haven't actually heard to be music.

Yes - that concept occurred to me when I posted my "was the B minor Mass a masterpiece in the years that it wasn't performed?" comment. What about the sounds that I don't know/haven't heard - and those that have yet to be made?!

To me, the key thing is what "we" do either actively or even passively.

- 'tho' I have the sort of personality that doesn't really get very much out of "passive" ... err ... activity. It's very annoying.

(And I second your to ahinton's post, too.)

[NatBalance]

Trust me, IT IS a piece and a composition... ask Mr Hinton if you like (and he is a REAL composer )

Ah well, looks like I'll just have to trust you then. One of these days someone might say something and I'll suddenly GET IT :)

I'll get back to reading those other replies earlier on explaining what you meant by brilliant music I don't like. Don't know when I'll get around to that.

[MrGongGong]

Ah well, looks like I'll just have to trust you then. One of these days someone might say something and I'll suddenly GET IT :)

I'll get back to reading those other replies earlier on explaining what you meant by brilliant music I don't like. Don't know when I'll get around to that.

This

I think you need to change your understanding of what a "piece" is and what a "composition" is.