Classical - (Jazz) - Pop

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Also, it gets a bit much when you always have to attached something like IMV to every view you make, as I've said before, do I likewise have to say 'To be honest' aswell?

No (and not only because "to be honest" always creates the exact opposite impression of what the word "honest" means) - but it would help you if you gave some indication of how you arrive at you "v"/"o".

[doversoul1]

NatBalance

I can't see that these reasons really get to the heart of the matter, which is the connection in the sound of the two musical genres

.

This is entirely IMV

I get an impression that behind or at the bottom of Nat’s endless argument (if you call it that) is that In His View, a lot of people (common listeners, that is) get into Jazz via pop music whereas not many do from classical music. Therefore, there must be some connection (sounds similar etc.) between Jazz and pop music, and therefore Jazz is closer to pop music than to classical music. How does this sound?

[french frank]

Well sound is what music is about.

Well, accepting that without quibble, 'genre' is about more than that. What sort of 'connection' are you looking for between different 'genres (e.g.classical and jazz)? And why should there be such a connection between jazz and classical, any more than between heavy metal and musicals? Or boy-band pop and rap?

[NatBalance]

I think it would help me respond to Natty if he would give some indication of what criterion/criteria s/he is using in comments such as

ABBA and ELO (Electric Light Orchestra) are commercial, mass audience music? I think they are, and I would most definitely call their music art, even high art.or

and/or

I consider pop music just as good as classical

I don't know if I agree or disagree without such criteria, let alone how I could respond to what I think s/he's trying to say.

I don't know what you mean Ferny. My original words were ….

"Well, would you say ABBA and ELO (Electric Light Orchestra) are commercial, mass audience music? I think they are, and I would most definitely call their music art, even high art."

….. in response to your statement …..

"So, for me 'pop music' embraces all kinds of music which are commercial, mass audience industry: that isn't 'art music'. But other forms of 'popular' music may well be art music."

You may have missed it, I gave my view on musical criterion in the first post, notice GongGong "MY VIEW" (Why isn't there a funny face for blowing a damn good Harry Secombe raspberry? It would just fit perfect there)

To my way of thinking there are basically two genres of music - Classical and Pop. There are many types of music that straddle those two forms, such as prog rock and modern jazz, but I think that on the whole most music can be placed in either one of these two genres.

Classical Music - this type of music originated from religious music and the first form of classical music was Gregorian Chant. It branched out from there to form many different types, such as romantic, baroque, renaissance, minimalist(?), one of which is actually called classical. In live performance such music is very rarely amplified, only when the venue is very big or outside will it be amplified. I have recently been told that the truer name for classical music is Art Music (don't know if that name describes it any better).

Pop Music - this type of music I think has originated from traditional folk music. It has of course also branched out and now encompasses a vast variety of styles such as country, blues, rock, house, heavy metal and again (like with classical), one of which is actually called pop. In live performance this music is virtually always amplified, no matter how small the venue.

I then later posted this link to show the music generally included in the pop music genre, although I still don't know what avant-garde is doing there:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popular_music_genres

And that's Wikipedia, so it MUST be true

Bye the way, I'm a fella. Well, with the name Richard I hope I am.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Oh, I noticed the "this type of Music originated in religious Music" comment, alright - as well as the point that you didn't address whence this "religious Music" itself "originated", nor how the Musics of the Western Classical Traditions evolved from these origins (both of which points might have helped towards an understanding of why Jazz features on R3).

But I'm still unsure that you have provided the criteria you use to form your "opinion"/"view" that ABBA or ELO (as opposed to Chicory Tip or Brotherhood of Man, perhaps) can be called "High Art". What features of sound lead you to form such a "view"/"opinion"? Without knowing your criteria, I cannot understand whence your reasoning comes, nor (therefore) how to respond to it.

[MrGongGong]

Bye the way, I'm a fella. Well, with the name Richard I hope I am.

Welcome back mr Barrett?
(why are you adopting such a bizarre persona?)

Only the top two are quotes of mine.

I know
I made the others up
It's easy to make grandiose unsupported statements isn't it?

[teamsaint]

Actually, I don't think I'm right in calling heavy metal serious music, it's aggressive music.

hard to know where to start with a retraction and statement like that, really, other than with some pretty comprehensive editing.......

[NatBalance]

Oh, I noticed the "this type of Music originated in religious Music" comment, alright - as well as the point that you didn't address whence this "religious Music" itself "originated"…

Crumbs, I've no idea. I don't know everything you know. I draw your attention to what I said earlier …

Please bear in mind I am thinking out loud here, not sure my views are correct, I am posing these views with a hope to learn further and hopefully consolidate them.

… nor how the Musics of the Western Classical Traditions evolved from these origins (both of which points might have helped towards an understanding of why Jazz features on R3).

Please do elaborate. As I state above I am here to learn.

But I'm still unsure that you have provided the criteria you use to form your "opinion"/"view" that ABBA or ELO (as opposed to Chicory Tip or Brotherhood of Man, perhaps) can be called "High Art". What features of sound lead you to form such a "view"/"opinion"? Without knowing your criteria, I cannot understand whence your reasoning comes, nor (therefore) how to respond to it.

Lummy, this is getting technical. Criteria and all that. That's a BIGGIE, I'll have to get back to you on that one, won't have much time next few days but I'll have a go. I'm not too hot on music theory so I'll have to have a go without that aid. I don't believe knowledge of music theory bares any relationship on your ability to judge good music from bad, or even create good music. Music is a subjective thing and music theory is not an exact science but it can help in explaining why you like certain music and it can certainly help if you are a composer. Also, complication does not automatically mean a great piece of music. Some of the best music can be the simplest, and yes, actually be simple. I know that some music that sounds simple can be very complicated in structure, but also some music that sounds simple can actually be simple and yet also be a great piece of music. For instance, this piece by Chopin is one of my favourite and yet I believe, and it certainly sounds like, one of his very early pieces written when about 10 or there abouts. It's also even in C major. This recording is the only one I can find of it and she plays it too slowly and like a robot. Played by a professional I think this is an absolutely charming little walze to equal any of his other more technically challenging walzes:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxC9Aqumv0g

Anyway, when I've got time I'll try to explain why I think ABBA and ELO are high art.

[NatBalance]

Oops, made a mistake, it's in A minor. I thought it didn't sound like a major piece. Here's a better one:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aspcdJ8Nz0c

[MrGongGong]

I'm not too hot on music theory so I'll have to have a go without that aid. I don't believe knowledge of music theory bares any relationship on your ability to judge good music from bad, or even create good music.

Who said anything about "Music THeory"?
Oh, wait a minute

YOU DID

Music is a subjective thing and music theory is not an exact science but it can help in explaining why you like certain music and it can certainly help if you are a composer.

So as someone "not too hot" on it you seem to have formed a rather firm opinion (I'm the same about particle physics though, I know Jack about it but "I know what I like" ..... wardrobe or not)

You really are very confused (so I reckon you aren't RB who really does know his music theory)

A mate of mine (who happens to be a University Lecturer in music and aesthetics) once pointed out that (and it was after several pints so in pedant mode) "Music Theory" as it is widely known isn't a "Theory" at all. There is very little that is "Theoretical" as it's usually applied to areas of music that are about practical application rather than speculative ideas.

You also fail to mention the sheer brilliance of Chicory Tip who introduced the descending broken major chord arpeggio into popular music. (that IS "music theory" as the ABRSM would understand it)

[Lat-Literal]

Who said anything about "Music THeory"?
Oh, wait a minute

YOU DID



So as someone "not too hot" on it you seem to have formed a rather firm opinion (I'm the same about particle physics though, I know Jack about it but "I know what I like" ..... wardrobe or not)

You really are very confused (so I reckon you aren't RB who really does know his music theory)

A mate of mine (who happens to be a University Lecturer in music and aesthetics) once pointed out that (and it was after several pints so in pedant mode) "Music Theory" as it is widely known isn't a "Theory" at all. There is very little that is "Theoretical" as it's usually applied to areas of music that are about practical application rather than speculative ideas.

You also fail to mention the sheer brilliance of Chicory Tip who introduced the descending broken major chord arpeggio into popular music. (that IS "music theory" as the ABRSM would understand it)

Did they?

I never knew that and it's genuinely fascinating.

Wiki says that "Son of My Father" was the first big pop hit to feature Moog. I beg to disagree. Surely it was "Popcorn" by Hot Butter and they ripped off Gershon Kingsley?

(Have just checked - "Son of My Father" was three months earlier but it was recorded later - pah)

[MrGongGong]

Did they?

I never knew that and it's genuinely fascinating.

Wiki says that "Son of My Father" was the first big pop hit to feature Moog. I beg to disagree. Surely it was "Popcorn" by Hot Butter and they ripped off Gershon Kingsley?

(Have just checked - "Son of My Father" was three months earlier but was recorded later - pah)

I'll dig out my copy of this (highly recommended) and check

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674016170

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIuBhS70sio

Out of synch but at least it's not someone apparently playing chords on a monophonic synth
aaaah the days when instruments didn't need to be plugged in to work

[Lat-Literal]

I'll dig out my copy of this (highly recommended) and check

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674016170

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIuBhS70sio

Out of synch but at least it's not someone apparently playing chords on a monophonic synth
aaaah the days when instruments didn't need to be plugged in to work

Ah yes, Giorgio Moroder so that makes sense.

But Chinn and Chapman and Mickie Most must have been there or thereabouts?

[teamsaint]

the real problem with " Son of my Father" is figuring out any sense in the lyrics.......

( Check the video for subtitles).

no doubt MrGG will be thrilled to hear that it is still a footy fans favourite .
( Happy days back in 72, learning to play that and " Look what u Dun" on the piano.)

[MrGongGong]

Ah yes, Giorgio Moroder so that makes sense.

But Chinn and Chapman and Mickie Most must have been there or thereabouts?

I think this predates most of that

Or this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SW6qVLSVzw