Classical - (Jazz) - Pop

[Bryn]

Why ask if you already know? Same goes for all the other questions you ask.

I bet you are the person at the party everyone avoids.

"If you don't know, why do you ask?"

[MrGongGong]

"If you don't know, why do you ask?"

Excellent

I was thinking about this one

NICHI NICHI KORE KO NICHI: EVERY DAY IS A BEAUTIFUL DAY
What if I ask thirty-two questions?
What if I stop asking now and then?
Will that make things clear?
Is communication something made clear?
What is communication?
Music, what does it communicate?
Is what’s clear to me clear to you?
Is music just sounds?
Then what does it communicate?
Is a truck passing by music?
If I can see it, do I have to hear it too?
If I don’t hear it, does it still communicate?
If while I see it I can’t hear it, but hear something else, say an egg-beater, because I’m inside looking out, does the truck communicate or the egg-beater, which communicates?
Which is more musical, a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?
Are the people inside the school musical and the ones outside unmusical?
What if the ones inside can’t hear very well, would that change my question?
Do you know what I mean when I say inside the school?
Are sounds just sounds or are they Beethoven?
People aren’t sounds, are they?
Is there such a thing as silence?
Even if I get away from people, do I still have to listen to something?
Say I’m off in the woods, do I have to listen to a stream babbling?
Is there always something to hear, never any peace and quiet?
If my head is full of harmony, melody, and rhythm, what happens to me when the telephone rings, to my peace and quiet, I mean?
And if it was European harmony, melody, and rhythm in my head, what has happened to the history of, say, Javanese music, with respect, that is to say, to my head?
Are we getting anywhere asking questions?
Where are we going?
Is this the twenty-eighth question?
Are there any important questions?
“How do you need to cautiously proceed in dualistic terms?”
Do I have two more questions?
And, now, do I have none?

[NatBalance]

Thank you BeefOven. I thought a forum about Radio 3 would be devoid of rude people but the blighters get everywhere don't they?

OK Gongers, so you say:-

It really is quite simple

Yea, right

Some sounds (like the sine wave ones in this piece) have only a single frequency
Others have combinations in differing amounts

So a sound can either be a single frequency or a combination of frequencies. Is that right?

Some are "notes" and some aren't"

So which ones are notes and which aren't? Can you see why I am confused and why I therefore cannot understand the sound based / note based classification?

I think this is something that cannot be explained easily on a forum unless we go back and forth for a very long time but do not despair, I do have contacts with music and sound engineering type folk so I'll ask them about this, see if they can shed any light.

Rich

[MrGongGong]

So a sound can either be a single frequency or a combination of frequencies. Is that right?

YES

So which ones are notes and which aren't? Can you see why I am confused and why I therefore cannot understand the sound based / note based classification?

Using the Sound based / Note based argument (and keeping it as simple as possible)
This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADvZ6Rg7gis

is a note

and this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEnRj1h9Deo

is a sound that isn't a note (it contains ALL frequencies)

Between these two there is a whole universe of possibilities

[NatBalance]

Thanks for the poem Gongers. Good one

and this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEnRj1h9Deo

is a sound that isn't a note (it contains ALL frequencies)

Between these two there is a whole universe of possibilities

Yes I get that, there are just too many frequencies going on in that second link for any pitch to stand out so that can't be called a note. I can see that that can be a way of categorising music but sorry, I still can't see it as a major classification. It's more like a sub category, like music in a tonic scale or a pentatonic scale, or even music in a major scale or minor scale, but I just can't see how it is useful as a major category.

Moving on to the discusion about the word 'serious', I am also not that happy with such a word distinguishing classical from pop, I mean look at heavy metal, but I can understand why it is called so. Actually, some heavy metal can be so over the top serious that it makes me laugh, especially death metal …. love it

I reckon one of the many ways to describe the differences between pop music and classical is this (and please be aware I am not trying to denegrate pop music by this definition, as I have already said I consider pop music just as good as classical, it just appeals to a different side of our musical needs):-

Pop Music - the music itself can only express happy, sad or agressive. It relies on the words to express anything else, or it 'goes' classical.

Classical Music - the music itself can express a wider range of emotions beyond happy, sad and agressive, can express a scene, a feeling, an atmosphere, tell a story without words.

Of course there are cross-overs between the two.

So if, as you insist, 4:33" isn't really music it raises the question of what would make it music?

Well I'm not really saying it isn't music, I'm saying it is not a 'piece' of music, it is a 'piece' of meditation, consentrating on sound. I must say you are putting forth some good arguments Gongers, you are making me think hard and test my my own ideas.

Therefore it's the context that makes it music or notmusic?

4:33" has a duration
has movements
has sounds
has a performance context
has a score
has sounds that the composer intended (as much as recording the birds unless you posses the superpower of commanding them to sing)

What's the problem?

The problem is things like the movements. I mean, closing and opening the lid of the piano to define the movements. I don't see how that works at all. You are still hearing the abient sounds or 'music' all through that process. There is no destinction. You state it "has the sounds that the composer intended". I don't know what that means. Doesn't that mean that a composer could write on a score 'Play anything you like' and then state that this 'piece' has sounds that the composer intended? I don't see how it can be called a performance anymore than a meditation of a duration of 4'33" could be called a performance.

FF a bit off topic
but this has some interesting things to say which seemed relevant to me

http://www.artsjournal.com/sandow/2015/10/music-theory-for-a-new-century.html

For example (comparing Jazz, Classical music and Pop music)

Yes interesting but it's all about technicalities, theory. The explanations being given for the connection between jazz and classical are theory, technical difficulty related, plus the fact that most people who like jazz tend to also like classical or visa versa. I can't see that these reasons really get to the heart of the matter, which is the connection in the sound of the two musical genres.

[french frank]

The explanations being given for the connection between jazz and classical are theory, technical difficulty related, plus the fact that most people who like jazz tend to also like classical or visa versa. I can't see that these reasons really get to the heart of the matter, which is the connection in the sound of the two musical genres.

Why does there need to be a connection of that kind? What kind of 'connection' are you looking for, and why?

[NatBalance]

Actually, I don't think I'm right in calling heavy metal serious music, it's aggressive music.

[NatBalance]

Why does there need to be a connection of that kind? What kind of 'connection' are you looking for, and why?

Well sound is what music is about.

[MrGongGong]

The basic question remains

WHY?

(do you want to do this)

The problem is things like the movements. I mean, closing and opening the lid of the piano to define the movements. I don't see how that works at all. You are still hearing the abient sounds or 'music' all through that process. There is no destinction. You state it "has the sounds that the composer intended". I don't know what that means. Doesn't that mean that a composer could write on a score 'Play anything you like' and then state that this 'piece' has sounds that the composer intended? I don't see how it can be called a performance anymore than a meditation of a duration of 4'33" could be called a performance.

It works by delineating when one period of listening starts and another ends... not really a problem

YES,one could could write a score that says "'Play anything you like' and then state that this 'piece'" (whether it would be any "good" or not is another matter all together)

I think you have a narrow interpretation of what constitutes a "performance".

You might enjoy some of La Monte Young's pieces from 1960

http://www.fondazionebonotto.org/fluxus/younglamonte/performance/fx1407.html

[MrGongGong]

Well sound is what music is about.

Is it?

Is it always?

Is music "about" anything?

Can music be about "music"?


(making grand statements often lands one in a hole without a ladder IMV)

[NatBalance]

(making grand statements often lands one in a hole without a ladder IMV)

And who or what decides which is a grand statement?

[MrGongGong]

And who or what decides which is a grand statement?

This is (IMV)

Pop Music - the music itself can only express happy, sad or agressive. It relies on the words to express anything else, or it 'goes' classical.

Classical Music - the music itself can express a wider range of emotions beyond happy, sad and agressive, can express a scene, a feeling, an atmosphere, tell a story without words.

as is this

Well sound is what music is about.

as is this

Everyone in the Western Hemisphere enjoys listening to the music of Ludovico Einaudi

and this

All singers should use as much vibrato as possible at all times if they want to be taken seriously by the BBC

It's easy to come out with "theories of everything" BUT why?

[doversoul1]

Keep going Gongers. I don’t often find a chance to cheer you on but I am thoroughly enjoying your responses to poor Natty.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think it would help me respond to Natty if he would give some indication of what criterion/criteria s/he is using in comments such as

ABBA and ELO (Electric Light Orchestra) are commercial, mass audience music? I think they are, and I would most definitely call their music art, even high art.or

and/or

I consider pop music just as good as classical

I don't know if I agree or disagree without such criteria, let alone how I could respond to what I think s/he's trying to say.

[NatBalance]

Keep going Gongers. I don’t often find a chance to cheer you on but I am thoroughly enjoying your responses to poor Natty.

Only the top two are quotes of mine. The first quote I originally began with the words 'I reckon', making out it was my suggestion not something I consider a fact. OK so the second one did not have the obligatory IMV attached and I suppose it could be called a grand statement, so OK, go ahead ... put me in that hole then!

Also, it gets a bit much when you always have to attached something like IMV to every view you make, as I've said before, do I likewise have to say 'To be honest' aswell?