Classical - (Jazz) - Pop

[MrGongGong]

Try asking what improvisation is in Jazz on the Jazz board but don’t expect a one-line answer. .

It might also be interesting to ask the same question of the early music folks?

(Derek Bailey's book is worth reading http://www.amazon.co.uk/Improvisatio.../dp/0306805286 )

[Quarky]

It has been suggested that I do not know what jazz is and recommend I read the Jazz board on this forum. Crumbs, I've dipped into it and I reckon I'd have to do a hell of a lot of reading. It would help if I could have some pointers. I'll have a read when I can but unless they have links to examples I doubt I will be able to understand by just text.

Music is basically about sound and whether you like it or not. What's the difference between a musical note and a sound?




PS. How did I do? More boring? Less?

Always entertaining, Nat.

As far as I am concerned, Jazz (and any other form of music) has to be listened to, to be appreciated. Try the Saturday programmes on R3, Jazz Record Requests etc, and Jamie Cullum's programme on R2 Tuesday evening. Bear in mind that many of the early Jazz musicians couldn't read a note of music, let alone a learned discourse (e.g. Schuller).

Words about music are fine, once the music has been fully appreciated. But very rarely does reading about music lead to an appreciation of the music (so far as I am concerned).

The difference between a note and a sound? Isn't this obvious? Mr. GG gave very clear examples. A note has characteristics of a specific frequency and a time duration. A sound has a spectrum of frequencies, which together represent the overall event experienced by the ears (which may include a note as a major component of the spectrum).

[NatBalance]

In this context you use the word "music" to mean "piece of paper"

Yes I was confusing 'music' and 'score'. Habit.

If you choose to ignore all the people who were there for the few years before the Europeans arrived.

Well said. Give that man a Smarty.

You missed the bit where you say "in my opinion".

Oh cripes, do I really have to say that everytime? Can't it be taken for granted? You'll be telling me I have to say 'To tell the truth' next :)

What happens in your analysis if you don't "like it" ? Does that mean you can't "attach" other things to it?

Well you can, but don't think there'd be much point. Scrunch it up and shuck it …. have another go.

[MrGongGong]

The difference between a note and a sound? Isn't this obvious? Mr. GG gave very clear examples. A note has characteristics of a specific frequency and a time duration. A sound has a spectrum of frequencies, which together represent the overall event experienced by the ears (which may include a note as a major component of the spectrum).

It's important (IMV) to realise that these things all overlap.
A good example is the (often discussed in acoustics classes) example of whether Timpani sounds are perceived as "notes" (with a pitch) or "sounds" (a rumbling noise). This is largely dependent on the context in which they are heard. This is often discussed by organ builders etc.

("for ever" is a time duration)

[NatBalance]

The difference between a note and a sound? Isn't this obvious? Mr. GG gave very clear examples. A note has characteristics of a specific frequency and a time duration. A sound has a spectrum of frequencies, which together represent the overall event experienced by the ears (which may include a note as a major component of the spectrum).

But aren't all notes a spectrum of frequencies? Harmonics. That's what defines a C on a piano from a C on an oboe. It seems that a note is an actual C or a D sharp, irrespective of what instrument is playing that note.

[Quarky]

But aren't all notes a spectrum of frequencies? Harmonics. That's what defines a C on a piano from a C on an oboe. It seems that a note is an actual C or a D sharp, irrespective of what instrument is playing that note.

Well Mr. GG is better equipped to answer.

There was a bit of electronic music played on Breakfast this morning, Delia Derbyshire, Air: http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/artists/5...c-0c2c11e0c105

Electronic music can produce a pure sine wave at the note frequency, 441 HZ or whatever, but a note played by a mechanical instrument will have harmonics and overtones, as you say.

May be there is a scientific definition in terms of the 3dB point (half power) - if still close to the note frequency at half-power point in the spectrum, then you have a pure note, more or less.

[MrGongGong]

But aren't all notes a spectrum of frequencies? Harmonics.

No
Some are (like the ones you describe)
Some aren't


Some of the sounds in this piece are notes without a spectrum of frequencies (and some are notes with)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEngQN92Z0

[NatBalance]

Some of the sounds in this piece are notes without a spectrum of frequencies (and some are notes with)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEngQN92Z0

So if some notes are a spectrum of frequencies and some are not, and a sound is a spectrum of frequencies …. I think I'd better leave this one hadn't I? My head's about to explode. It needs a thread of its own.

[MrGongGong]

So if some notes are a spectrum of frequencies and some are not, and a sound is a spectrum of frequencies …. I think I'd better leave this one hadn't I? My head's about to explode. It needs a thread of its own.

It really is quite simple
Some sounds (like the sine wave ones in this piece) have only a single frequency
Others have combinations in differing amounts
Some are "notes" and some aren't
one could say that ALL sounds with a single frequency are sine waves and are "notes' (until you get below 20hz where they might be "pulses").

The clever folks who write about electroacoustic music have much to say about these things IMV

[NatBalance]

It really is quite simple
Some sounds (like the sine wave ones in this piece) have only a single frequency
Others have combinations in differing amounts
Some are "notes" and some aren't ......

Oh I think I'll stick with the terms effect, melody and rhythm music. I can understand those. Sorting out note based from sound based is for the clever folks, and apparently I do not qualify for the latter :( Sniff

No no, don't worry about me, I'll be fine, in my hole of ignorance. Where's that damn taxi?

[MrGongGong]

Oh I think I'll stick with the terms effect, melody and rhythm music. I can understand those.

That's a shame
because they fail to describe many musics that you are likely to encounter

Nothing to do with being "clever" or not.

I'm still unclear WHY you want to describe music in this way?

The boundaries are not walls.

I was part of a discussion last week about the new GCSE music syllabus, it's likely to include an element where students are asked to write about music they haven't previously heard (from listening examples). Without an understanding of how music has many forms it would be impossible to say anything meaningful about it.

[NatBalance]

That's a shame
because they fail to describe many musics that you are likely to encounter

Well, as yet I just can't think of any music that cannot come under one of those three categories, or be a combination.

[MrGongGong]

Well, as yet I just can't think of any music that cannot come under one of those three categories, or be a combination.

Does that mean that there isn't any?

I'm still puzzled as to WHY you are wanting to do things in this way?

It's a bit like saying that music falls into two "categories"

1: Stuff I like
2: Everything else (which is sh*te)

What do you mean by "melody"?
Is it fixed or does ones perception of what constitutes a "melody" change?

(This is a forum for talking about music, why not talk about it?)

[Serial_Apologist]

But aren't all notes a spectrum of frequencies? Harmonics. That's what defines a C on a piano from a C on an oboe. It seems that a note is an actual C or a D sharp, irrespective of what instrument is playing that note.

Why ask if you already know? Same goes for all the other questions you ask.

I bet you are the person at the party everyone avoids.

[Beef Oven!]

Why ask if you already know? Same goes for all the other questions you ask.

I bet you are the person at the party everyone avoids.

You are very nasty, when you want to be.