Classical - (Jazz) - Pop

[MrGongGong]

(from some other research today)
Some ways of mapping music genres



The obvious wonderful (as previously mentioned) Every Noise at Once

http://everynoise.com/engenremap.html

Another well known one (lots of variants on this)



and



and



and

http://ears.pierrecouprie.fr/spip.php?article19

[Serial_Apologist]

Hard mostly to decipher on my teeny weeny screeny, but thanks GG - I get the ideas.

[NatBalance]

Hey MrGongGong, R3 is doing a prog on La Monte Young on Monday I think Petroc said. He just played some from that piece you linked earlier. What a coincidence.

[Beef Oven!]

I think you will find plenty of musicology - even in CD liner notes - about Mozart, Beethoven, Shostakovich, Laibach, Davis and their music.

No you will not!

[MrGongGong]

No you will not!

I think she meant Napalm Death

[Beef Oven!]

I think she meant Napalm Death

[french frank]

No you will not!

I was just copying out the names Gongers mentioned. Happy to accept your assurance that you will find NO musicology in CD liner notes about Laibach (genres: Martial industrial, industrial, neoclassical dark wave, avant-garde, experimental, electronic, electro-industrial). I will not hazard a suggestion as to why that might be.

[cloughie]

I've got to say that, and this is just a personal opinion, this is probably one of the most tedious and pointless thread we've had in some time.

[french frank]

I've got to say that, and this is just a personal opinion, this is probably one of the most tedious and pointless thread we've had in some time.

More tedious than the Pedantry thread (not that I find either thread to be tedious)? There are some threads I occasionally dive into to check and form the opinion that each is the most tedious thread ever. But wild horses wouldn't drag the titles out of me …

[MrGongGong]

I've got to say that, and this is just a personal opinion, this is probably one of the most tedious and pointless thread we've had in some time.

More than the football?
It does have the potential to be fascinating IMV

[Quarky]

Hey MrGongGong, R3 is doing a prog on La Monte Young on Monday I think Petroc said. He just played some from that piece you linked earlier. What a coincidence.

Much in-line with this thread's topic, Nat. I hadn't realised how much La Monte owed to Jazz, but he was a very credible Jazz musician, having played with greats such as Ornette Coleman.

I guess that is true of many minimalist composers - certainly Steve Reich / Coltrane. Stockhausen I think may have played in a Jazz band, and for UK composers, Turnage and Ferneyhough are influenced by jazz, in my view.

So I guess this underlines the rationale "We find that jazz enthusiasts have much in common with classical music lovers" - and elevates the position of Jazz over other genres in the Classical perspective.

Tasty/ not- Tasty ???.

[MrGongGong]

Tasty/ not- Tasty ???.

Very Tasty IMV

[NatBalance]

Right let's have a look what's been going on with my boring thread since I last had time to do anything with it. God, it IS boring isn't it? Wouldn't you rather be listening to 4'33"? I wonder if there's anything I can add to make it even more boring …. I'll try my best.

But first …. Natty …. yes, I like it.

Yes - but "categories" in Music are rather sieve-like: just when you think you've got things neatly in categories, you realize that some of your favourite works leak into each other, and all you're left with are the lumps which don't really help: here is Jazz, here is Classical - here is Gershwin and here is Ravel. Some beggar of a genius always comes along and you have to start rearranging - categories in the Arts only work if you keep your eyes in the centre and avoid looking at all the unpredictable interactions that are going on at the edges.

If I understand correctly you are stating that if you classify music you would have to "start rearranging" the classifications because certain pieces of music are a mix of more than one category? I don't see why you would have to do that. Holst used folk tunes in some of his pieces, that does not mean you then have to re-evaluate the meaning of folk music and modern 20th century music.

It has been suggested that I do not know what jazz is and recommend I read the Jazz board on this forum. Crumbs, I've dipped into it and I reckon I'd have to do a hell of a lot of reading. It would help if I could have some pointers. I'll have a read when I can but unless they have links to examples I doubt I will be able to understand by just text.

Music is basically about sound and whether you like it or not. If you do like it then other things can be attached to it, like words, a story, action, and those words / story / action can then be enhanced, or the music can just stand alone. All I know about jazz is bassically what is sounds like, and to me it sounds (except modern jazz, or whatever the proper name is for the classicalised jazz) more like the music I would hear on Radio 2. Please don't missunderstand me, I am not complaining about jazz being on R3, I like jazz, although I did find it a bit much one evening a few years ago when the whole evening was taken up with jazz. I wonder if we could have a whole evening of the likes of Rick Wakeman and Jon Lord sometime in the future?

That's because you are using the term 'pop music' in a particularly vague way as a synonym of 'popular'. 'Classical' may have two meanings, but the meanings are distinct: they aren't interchangeable. So, for me 'pop music' embraces all kinds of music which are commercial, mass audience industry: that isn't 'art music'. But other forms of 'popular' music may well be art music.

Well, would you say ABBA and ELO (Electric Light Orchestra) are commercial, mass audience music? I think they are, and I would most definitely call their music art, even high art.

Someone else who is possibly doomed?

http://www.elbuzzard.com/music

Yep, think you're right there Gongers. Apparently, quote "Jazz has been called America’s classical music, and for good reason. Along with the blues, its forefather, it is one of the first truly indigenous musics to develop in America …."

Good grief. Jazz, America's classical music? Now that is going way too far. He obviously hasn't heard of Copland and Bernstein (America's classical music), and under the heading 'Classical', which is down twice, he has given no explanation at all. That reminds me of a mate's ex wife who apparently when she was asked whether she liked classical music said "Oh yes, love Elton John" (she thought it meant older pop music).

Quote " “The term sound-based music typically designates the art form in which the sound, that is, not the musical note, is its basic unit.” Leigh Landy, Understanding the Art of Sound Organization"

What's the difference between a musical note and a sound?

What makes Jazz a distinct type of music is improvisation. It does not matter what tune or song is being played*. What matters is how it is improvised, and impastation takes a lot more musical knowledge and techniques than performing Pop. Improvisation is the creation of musicians and not something that marketing can make it work. This is why it is seen as serious music along with classical music. Most other types of non-traditional popular (other than Pop) music like progressive rock etc. have ‘progressed’ from Pop whereas Jazz does not share this roots.

Now this is interesting. At last an actual explanation of a connection. This business about improvisation is a confusing one. Is it not true to state that in general all pop musicians do not play from music? They may have just the chords written down sometimes but mainly I think pop musicians play by ear or memory, and likewise when they compose they do it via improvisation, in other words they do not compose on a score. Classical musicians play from a score and many classical composers can compose direct onto a score. Classical composers such as Chopin, Liszt, Mozart and Beethoven were well known for their ability to improvise and rarely played their own music the same way twice. Now this is where it gets a bit confusing. I'm not sure the same is true of classical musicians. If they are just musicians and not also composers I don't think they get as much practice at improvisation because they are virtually always playing from a score. I would have thought that the ability to play by ear was also essential for a classical musician, just in case they have memory loss when playing without the music, and I know they can do it, but did I hear right that when Yehudi Menuhin was playing with Stephane Grappelli, Menuhin needed sheet music in order to play jazz with him because he could not improvise? Something like that.

Rich

PS. How did I do? More boring? Less?

[MrGongGong]

Quote " “The term sound-based music typically designates the art form in which the sound, that is, not the musical note, is its basic unit.” Leigh Landy, Understanding the Art of Sound Organization"

What's the difference between a musical note and a sound?

After you
(I seem to remember writing too many words about this many years ago)

Depends on what you mean by "note"

Is it not true to state that in general all pop musicians do not play from music?

In this context you use the word "music" to mean "piece of paper"

they do not compose on a score

In this context the word "score" means "piece of paper"

More boring?

Try this (it's actually rather good but a bit niche)

http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/boring-formless-nonsense-9781441122131/

or even this wonderful event

http://boringconference.com

I have Tims book of hand driers and it's a fine tome

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/aug/30/stationery-fiends-hand-dryer-enthusiasts-who-calling-boring

BLIMEY

Along with the blues, its forefather, it is one of the first truly indigenous musics to develop in America ….

If you choose to ignore all the people who were there for the few years before the Europeans arrived.

and

Music is basically about sound and whether you like it or not. If you do like it then other things can be attached to it, like words, a story, action, and those words / story / action can then be enhanced, or the music can just stand alone.

You missed the bit where you say "in my opinion".
Such grand confidence you have Padwan

What happens in your analysis if you don't "like it" ? Does that mean you can't "attach" other things to it?

[doversoul1]

PS. How did I do? More boring? Less?

The former, I’m afraid. You are simply repeating what you think. Or to put it more bluntly, you are happily displaying your ignorance forevermore. There is nothing at all wrong with being ignorant but someone who is ignorant about his/her ignorance is deadly boring.

It has been suggested that I do not know what jazz is and recommend I read the Jazz board on this forum. Crumbs, I've dipped into it and I reckon I'd have to do a hell of a lot of reading. It would help if I could have some pointers. I'll have a read when I can but unless they have links to examples I doubt I will be able to understand by just text.

Try asking what improvisation is in Jazz on the Jazz board but don’t expect a one-line answer. You do have to do a hell of a lot of reading. That’s what learning is.