When and why did 'operatic voices' become so ugly?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

These things are relative (and contextual)

Absolutely - which is why I've made clear that it is in the "19thC" repertoire (say from non-HIPP Beethoven to Puccini or even Britten [yes, I know - that's why there are inverted commas]) that I find a very clear deterioration in the quality of "Operatic" singing from what I heard (broadcast and Live) in the '70s & '80s. Period performance of repertoire up to Mozart and "post-Darmstadt" 20th & 21stC Music - to say nothing of other Musics - aren't as blighted by the sort of performance problems highlighted in this Thread.

[verismissimo]

Absolutely - which is why I've made clear that it is in the "19thC" repertoire (say from non-HIPP Beethoven to Puccini or even Britten [yes, I know - that's why there are inverted commas]) that I find a very clear deterioration in the quality of "Operatic" singing from what I heard (broadcast and Live) in the '70s & '80s. Period performance of repertoire up to Mozart and "post-Darmstadt" 20th & 21stC Music - to say nothing of other Musics - aren't as blighted by the sort of performance problems highlighted in this Thread.

Of course, it may be that you've become more discerning in the intervening decades, ferney. That's what has happened to me...

[aeolium]

Of course, it may be that you've become more discerning in the intervening decades, ferney. That's what has happened to me...

So have others become less discerning, veri - including for instance our own Il Grande Inquisitor, whose reviews of many opera performances posted on the Night at the Opera sub-forum I greatly enjoyed, and who frequently praised - and still praises - singers in his reviews?

Personally I think these things are purely a matter of taste.

[gradus]

Yes, a matter of taste.

[jean]

I have found this thread quite puzzling.

Growing up surrounded by the Third Programme, I quickly developed a dislike of opera and operatic voices. I wish I could remember all the names, but Joan Hammond sticks in my mind for some reason. As my interest in early music developed, I listened to less and less music composed after Bach, and to opera I listened not at all if I could help it.

Then in London in the 60s I discovered the Handel Opera Society, and Lina Lalandi's English Bach Festival revivals of Rameau.. I wish I could remember some of the singers I heard then. It did seem to me that I was hearing something altogether more pleasant than what I associated with operatic singing from the 1950s.

I listened to nothing later than Handel until I went to live in Italy in 1990. First I became fascinated with Italian opera houses, and would do anything to get inside them - even listen to an opera. Thus it was that a performance of Bellini's I Puritani burst upon me in Cremona in about 1992, and from that moment I was hooked on the bel canto repertoire. Still I compared the singers I was hearing very favourably with the bad old days at home in the 1950s. I went on to extend my interest as far as Verdi, but only very occasionally have I listened to anything from the later C19.

Did I somehow miss a golden decade or two before everything went bad again? Or what?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well, indeed ("a matter of taste") - so, presumably, there are Forumistas who believe that there are singers around now who can match or even surpass their predecessors from the 1980s and before in the operatic and concert repertoire from say 1800 - 1920 - singers who give Elisabeth Soderstrom, Edith Mathis, Jessye Norman, Yvonne Minton, Brigitte Fassbaender, Jill Gomez, Frederica von Stade, Felicity Lott, Lucia Popp, Elly Ameling etc etc etc a run for their money.

Grateful to hear who these singers are (with youTube etc links for preference).

Look - I'll even start it off, just to show it's not a doctrinal thing with me: skip to 38mins in this (okay, it's not an opera, but a choral work - but it's a sound quite as lovely as any save the glorious Gundula; especially that bit at 41mins):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqwCYUbS2Y4

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Did I somehow miss a golden decade or two before everything went bad again? Or what?

But, jean - if you have no enthusiasm for the repertoire, then no voice will sound attractive or ugly to you in it. Some of us who adore it have noticed (and can't fail to have done so) a distinct decline in the vocal quality of the singers who attempt it.

[teamsaint]

Well, indeed ("a matter of taste") - so, presumably, there are Forumistas who believe that there are singers around now who can match or even surpass their predecessors from the 1980s and before in the operatic and concert repertoire from say 1800 - 1920 - singers who give Elisabeth Soderstrom, Edith Mathis, Jessye Norman, Yvonne Minton, Brigitte Fassbaender, Jill Gomez, Frederica von Stade, Felicity Lott, Lucia Popp, Elly Ameling etc etc etc a run for their money.

Grateful to hear who these singers are (with youTube etc links for preference).

Look - I'll even start it off, just to show it's not a doctrinal thing with me: skip to 38mins in this (okay, it's not an opera, but a choral work - but it's a sound quite as lovely as any save the glorious Gundula; especially that bit at 41mins):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqwCYUbS2Y4

It is a brilliant link Ferney.
going back to context, how do you feel about the GG ( you missed out your ) in Lieder?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

how do you feel about the GG ( you missed out your ) in Lieder?

[jean]

But, jean - if you have no enthusiasm for the repertoire...

But what repertoire are we talking about?

The OP was specifically about a particular performance of Rossini, whose music I love, and what I am saying is that I haven't noticed a decline in standards since I started to listen to this repertoire.

My question then was what was happening in the 1980s, or whenever it was, and you haven't answered it other than to note a 'distinct decline' in vocal quality.

[teamsaint]

ah ha, one for each of the 15 in that Schubert recital........

very cunning.......

[MrGongGong]

If I could have 20p for every time I have heard/read
"I hate opera singers but love Emma Kirkby"

the quality of the wine would go up immeasurably

[jean]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqwCYUbS2Y4

But quite a marked vibrato, surely?

I'm not complaining - I'm just less and less sure what people are talking about.

[Richard Tarleton]

Well, indeed ("a matter of taste") - so, presumably, there are Forumistas who believe that there are singers around now who can match or even surpass their predecessors from the 1980s and before in the operatic and concert repertoire from say 1800 - 1920 - singers who give Elisabeth Soderstrom, Edith Mathis, Jessye Norman, Yvonne Minton, Brigitte Fassbaender, Jill Gomez, Frederica von Stade, Felicity Lott, Lucia Popp, Elly Ameling etc etc etc a run for their money.

Grateful to hear who these singers are (with youTube etc links for preference).

Not sure if she's what you have in mind ferney, being in her early 50s, but I'd single out Nina Stemme as a notable exception among present-day Wagner singers [in her Wagnerian prime, of course]. I've heard some pretty grim Wagnerian sopranos and tenors at ROH in recent years but she holds her own against previous generations. I've heard several of your list live

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The OP was specifically about a particular performance of Rossini

??? - not on my computer:

Interesting that the [Building a Library on Verdi's Requiem] contrasted the voices on the Toscanini radio recording (1951?) with the later Muti recording. She referred to the 'narrow, fast vibrato' of the earlier recording. The Toscanini really made me sit up and listen; to me it sounded by a long way the least unacceptable of the recordings illustrated so far on this BAL - although JEG also blows away some of the horrid vocal mannerisms.

When and why did operatic voices become - by-and-large - so ugly? It's a big part of why I stay away from opera houses - the 'norm' sounds to me to be grotesque. The Muti soloists sounded like rouged, made-up, lipsticked caricature saints. When did that ghastly tendency creep in? The lurid '60s and '70s presumably? Was it to combat richer, fuller orchestral instruments and playing? Anyway, I'm not really complaining - it's saved me no end of money over the years; and a lot of the music doesn't appeal to me anyway, even 'properly' sung. But I'm just interested in why 'operatic singing' has gone like that - and why people like it

But quite a marked vibrato, surely?
I'm not complaining - I'm just less and less sure what people are talking about.

Cali referred (approvingly) of the "narrow, fast vibrato" of the singers in the 50s recording - it's not "marked vibrato" itself that is being criticized but the Tarzanesque wobble that infests a lot of modern singing. I didn't want to cite specific examples, but I, personally, would contrast Muhlemann with this (to me painful) example (starting at 1hr, 3mins 30secs)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILdqrIxD3wA