When and why did 'operatic voices' become so ugly?

[Nick Armstrong]

Interesting that the [Building a Library on Verdi's Requiem] contrasted the voices on the Toscanini radio recording (1951?) with the later Muti recording. She referred to the 'narrow, fast vibrato' of the earlier recording. The Toscanini really made me sit up and listen; to me it sounded by a long way the least unacceptable of the recordings illustrated so far on this BAL - although JEG also blows away some of the horrid vocal mannerisms.

When and why did operatic voices become - by-and-large - so ugly? It's a big part of why I stay away from opera houses - the 'norm' sounds to me to be grotesque. The Muti soloists sounded like rouged, made-up, lipsticked caricature saints. When did that ghastly tendency creep in? The lurid '60s and '70s presumably? Was it to combat richer, fuller orchestral instruments and playing? Anyway, I'm not really complaining - it's saved me no end of money over the years; and a lot of the music doesn't appeal to me anyway, even 'properly' sung. But I'm just interested in why 'operatic singing' has gone like that - and why people like it

[Alison]

Interesting that the review contrasted the voices on the Toscanini radio recording (1951?) with the later Muti recording. She referred to the 'narrow, fast vibrato' of the earlier recording. The Toscanini really made me sit up and listen; to me it sounded by a long way the least unacceptable of the recordings illustrated so far on this BAL - although JEG also blows away some of the horrid vocal mannerisms.

When and why did operatic voices become - by-and-large - so ugly? It's a big part of why I stay away from opera houses these days. The Muti soloists sounded like rouged, made-up, lipsticked caricature saints. When did that ghastly tendency creep in? The lurid '60s and '70s presumably? Was it to combat richer, fuller orchestral instruments and playing? Anyway, I'm not really complaining - it's saved me no end of money over the years; and a lot of the music doesn't appeal to me anyway, even 'properly' sung. But I'm just interested in why 'operatic singing' has gone like that - and why people like it

That's the best post in recent memory. Well done dearest

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

When and why did operatic voices become - by-and-large - so ugly? It's a big part of why I stay away from opera houses - the 'norm' sounds to me to be grotesque.

My answer to that is simple: when they started putting microphones in front of the singers in order to make recordings. In the opera house, the voices are less prominent, so don't sound so ugly.

[verismissimo]

... When and why did operatic voices become - by-and-large - so ugly? ...

Good question, Cali. With no simple answer. The dominance of verismo and Wagner after WW1 has a lot to do with it. Vibrato became wider and slower. Singers started doing emotive sobs. And so on. At the same time, orchestras started using instruments that played significantly louder, resulting in the singers having to 'force' more.

It's a pity that Toscanini made no recordings in his pre-WW1 years, when his singers (eg Frances Alda) had been trained in bel canto techniques and skills, by Marchesi among others.

Listening to Alda recordings (even in verismo roles) from those early years gives a good sense of what Toscanini and others would have expected to hear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwWRUY-Y63w

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

That's the best post in recent memory. Well done dearest

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My answer to that is simple: when they started putting microphones in front of the singers in order to make recordings.

Except that microphones have been used in this way since recordings began, Alpie - Domingo's voice wasn't "uglified" by listening to Mario Lanza, nor DF-D's from listening to Gerhard Hüsch.

In the opera house, the voices are less prominent, so don't sound so ugly.

But they do! As Cali says, ugly voices are "a big part of why [he] stays away from opera houses": if anything, worse than on record, as the singers are straining in Live performances to produce the volumes that come more "thankfully" with the use of a microphone.

"When and why"? - "Around 1990 and I have no idea".

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But they do! As Cali says, ugly voices are "a big part of why [he] stays away from opera houses": if anything, worse than on record, as the singers are straining in Live performances to produce the volumes that come more "thankfully" with the use of a microphone.

We'll have to agree to differ on this one. There only two singers who have really offended me in the opera house (or on the concert platform) but on broadcasts and recordings there are many.

[Nick Armstrong]

Just a nudge: we seem to be deviating here from the title of the thread..... just saying!

O visible and mossy Nick - true and mea culpa. Perhaps I will hive off the interesting exchange started by my moan into a separate thread on Talking About Music.

[vinteuil]

...probably one of the (many) reasons I was so drawn to the Historically Informed end of the spectrum - an abhorrence of the wobble, and a liking for the Emma Kirkby approach. Wobbles whether with voice or with instrument to be used selectively and rarely - not smeared over everything...

[Nick Armstrong]

My answer to that is simple: when they started putting microphones in front of the singers in order to make recordings. In the opera house, the voices are less prominent, so don't sound so ugly.

I think you're on to something there, EA. I've experienced a number of occasions where I've heard a vocal performance live and then heard the same performance as relayed via the microphones, and found the latter unbearable whereas the live experience was riveting.

Most glaringly and recently was the ENO Death in Venice, with John Graham Hall, when I was sat in the centre of the front row of the stalls a couple of seats away from one of the cameras filming it for SkyArts and subsequently the BluRay disc which I bought. Live in the theatre, I found his performance enthralling, real musical communication like heightened speech and no sense of anything unpleasant in the tone... whereas on the BluRay, the predominant impression is of an intrusive braying beat to the voice. Philip Langridge was another singer who, had one heard him only on recorded media, one would have thought had an 'ugly' voice - and yet no singer I've ever heard live was more gripping, seductive and emotionally powerful.

What is it with these digital microphones???

[MrGongGong]

My answer to that is simple: when they started putting microphones in front of the singers in order to make recordings. In the opera house, the voices are less prominent, so don't sound so ugly.

It's a tinfoil hat day again

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

We'll have to agree to differ on this one. There only two singers who have really offended me in the opera house (or on the concert platform) but on broadcasts and recordings there are many.

Ah! There is something there, Alpie - as has Cali with his reference to "digital mics"; most of my adverse reactions are based on broadcast performances, rather than hearing them in the theatre. I must get round to listening to the broadcast ON Gotterdammerung - the singers were all wonderful in the Hall (so wonderful the experience that I haven't been able to play the recording of the broadcast.


Erm ... which I didn't make and haven't got, of course.



Are there singers you've enjoyed hearing Live that you've found unpleasant to listen to?

[vinteuil]

Are there singers you've enjoyed hearing Live that you've found unpleasant to listen to?

... you mean, apart from Myself as experienced by Me, carolling in the bath : as opposed to me singing away, accidentally caught on tape by a 'friend'...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... you mean, apart from Myself as experienced by Me, carolling in the bath : as opposed to me singing away, accidentally caught on tape by a 'friend'...

Oh, gosh - that reminds me of a (deleted) attempt by my partner to record an outgoing message for our "ansafone". A remarkably sensitive microphone picked up my distant "Bleibe gnadigs" in a way that would have chilled the blood of the coldest caller!

[Lat-Literal]

Except that microphones have been used in this way since recordings began, Alpie - Domingo's voice wasn't "uglified" by listening to Mario Lanza, nor DF-D's from listening to Gerhard Hüsch.


But they do! As Cali says, ugly voices are "a big part of why [he] stays away from opera houses": if anything, worse than on record, as the singers are straining in Live performances to produce the volumes that come more "thankfully" with the use of a microphone.

"When and why"? - "Around 1990 and I have no idea".

1990 is approximately the year in which CDs took hold. I happen to think that operatic voices sound best on Shellac, less good on vinyl, less good still on vinyl when it became a lot thinner in the 1970s/1980s and even worse on CD. Some of that is about the quaintness of earlier technology. A lot of it isn't. But I would question whether Pavarotti sounded ugly.