When and why did 'operatic voices' become so ugly?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

All different now, of course.

Yeah! We have the BBC Singers.

[Nick Armstrong]

Yeah! We have the BBC Singers.

Perhaps they sound nice, heard live?

[jean]

Yeah! We have the BBC Singers.

The difference is that they're not the only game in town.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Perhaps they sound nice, heard live?

They don't. And you can't switch them off.

[jean]

[doversoul1]

And and some links to some recent examples of operatic singing that people really like would be great.

This may not be the right repertoire for this discussion but the singers are not all Baroque specialists.

http://www.lamonnaie.be/en/mymm/media/2235/Alcina---George-Frideric-Handel/

[subcontrabass]

Originally Posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
Yeah! We have the BBC Singers.

Perhaps they sound nice, heard live?

From experience they can be very loud. At my only live encounter with them I was doing an interval chat with the presenter. I arrived in time for their rehearsal and was only about one third of the way back in an empty auditorium when I was hit by a wall of sound and had to retreat further back. For the performance the audience absorbed some of the sound, so sitting with my back to the choir at the presenter's table, which was set to one side in front of the third basses, the volume was not too overwhelming.

[Rolmill]

Is it significant that the examples given of wobbly singing tend to be women (and usually sopranos)? Is it because sopranos are generally the worst culprits, or perhaps because the effect seems more unpleasant to the ear than with men? The reasons cited for the increase in wobbliness (need to be heard over ever-louder orchestras, effect of recording techniques, poor training etc) should apply equally to women and men, surely, and I have certainly heard some bad examples from tenors and basses, but for some reason it's the women who stick in my (and apparently most people's) mind.

As for examples, I find these pretty stunning in their different ways:

Bastianini (early 1960s, I think): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OT03KWR0K0

Lucia Popp (1976): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGUR5FBFvNU

Eileen Farrell (1955): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB0jnaz8-BQ

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Is it significant that the examples given of wobbly singing tend to be women (and usually sopranos)? Is it because sopranos are generally the worst culprits, or perhaps because the effect seems more unpleasant to the ear than with men? The reasons cited for the increase in wobbliness (need to be heard over ever-louder orchestras, effect of recording techniques, poor training etc) should apply equally to women and men, surely, and I have certainly heard some bad examples from tenors and basses, but for some reason it's the women who stick in my (and apparently most people's) mind.

It does seem that women's voices show greater deterioration as age progresses. I remember Dame Kiri Te Kanawa explaining voice deterioration in a an interview, effectively saying that singers often went on for longer than was good for their reputations. And perhaps she has now done the same. A few sopranos have kept their voices in tip-top condition in their mature years, Montserrat Caballé being a prime example, but this is rare. Men are luckier. I remember an amateur singer called Sydney, who lived in Scarborough and performed regularly (and magnificently) in his late 80s; a modern day George Baker.

John Rutter's Cambridge Singers were a superb choir when formed, but as the choir matured, so did the singing, and fruity wobble began to intrude.

I'm in a choir with a superb soprano section, The director ensures that this remains the case. On day, I was discussing this happy state of affairs with one of the basses. I said we didn't want the sopranos ever to sound like the BBC Singers. That was the wrong thing to say, for he replied, "My sister sang with the BBC Singers".

[aeolium]

Or the WNO, or the Buxton Festival, or any company on the lookout for cheaper, younger singers who haven't had their voices ruined yet through trying to do too much too soon.

Or, I would have said, Pesaro. I listened to the Rossini last night and thoroughly enjoyed it. There was one sop with a remarkably Callas-like timbre, but I heard nothing I'd call vile, wobbly and altogether toxic.

There's not much point in expecting to hear Rossinian coloratura sung with the sort of 'straight' sound appropriate to early music - it can't be done.

I agree with this, particularly the last sentence, as if C19 operas were expected to be sung with an C18 performance style - and we know from reports that there was no shortage of vibrato in C19 performances of bel canto operas (music which AFAIR the author of the OP has repeatedly commented that he doesn't like in any case).

The post also begs the question of what constitutes ugliness in singing, and whether a "beautiful" singing voice is always desirable in opera. What about Callas, or Ferrier, or Fischer-Dieskau, or Pears, or Fassbänder - certainly not conventionally beautiful voices but very characterful ones? I'm reminded of Britten's comment, recalling Ferrier, that he loathed a voice that was simply beautiful, suggesting that rather it ought to reflect or bring out the character of the singer. And of course in opera the character of the protagonist. And here I part company with vinteuil about Emma Kirkby, at least in respect of her operatic singing on disc. Her Handel arias to me reflect a voice that has never gone near something as messy as an opera stage, a voice for the recording age, singing intensely dramatic arias in an almost passionless style which is to me devoid of personality, "beautiful" but empty singing. So that indicates how personal ideas of beautiful singing are (and also my view, like Britten's, that mere beauty of tone is overrated).

I think the complaints about singing are excessive. I have heard a lot of what I thought was fine singing at WNO over recent years, in very different operas: Mozart, Janacek (Sophie Bevan terrific in The Cunning Little Vixen), Berg (Marie Arnet an excellent Lulu), Rossini and most recently Handel. Yes, there are sometimes disappointments, though for me it's far more likely to be with the production than with the singing.

[greenilex]

Mature or even elderly voices sound great in folksong, don't you think?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Mature or even elderly voices sound great in folksong, don't you think?

Only if the singer is as good as Peter Dawson.

[cloughie]

Only if the singer is as good as Peter Dawson.

Depends whether it's in the studio or unaccompanied in the pub!

[MrGongGong]

The post also begs the question of what constitutes ugliness in singing,.

Absolutely

These things are relative (and contextual)
Some people think this is 'ugly'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdjIEaDgEr8

[Bryn]

Absolutely

These things are relative (and contextual)
Some people think this is 'ugly'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdjIEaDgEr8

You want vibrato? Bucket-loads in Peking Opera: