Music Matters : Jenni Murray's Women Composers.

[Serial_Apologist]

How I agree with that! The idea of students choosing degree courses based principally on career possibilities and financial benefits seems very sad. But not unusual.

The unis turned to making education suit job specs followed logically, both from the unis themselves being made profts maximising efficiency-prioritising businesses and students having to fork out for their future careers. Remember how they were told fees would "only" be a couple of grand a year, was it?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Signed: A Teacher

Utter nonsense of course. You can teach Shakespeare brilliantly without being able to write a play. I’ve done vocational teaching work as an external examiner and as a trainer and most of the best teachers were also first rate practitioners. People who were useless at making programmes tended to be pretty poor at teaching others to do so and didn’t last long as teachers either. Teaching is tough.

[french frank]

Utter nonsense of course. You can teach Shakespeare brilliantly without being able to write a play.

Isn't that what it means? Those who can (Shakespeare), do write plays. Teachers can do lots of things, but those aren't necessarily what they teach. I could teach someone how to make a secret mitre dovetail but couldn't have earned my living doing it.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Isn't that what it means? Those who can (Shakespeare), do write plays. Teachers can do lots of things, but those aren't necessarily what they teach. I could teach someone how to make a secret mitre dovetail but couldn't have earned my living doing it.

I think what I’m saying is that they are plenty of excellent practitioners who are also very good teachers - though they may only do so on a part time basis and the implication that if you can’t make it as a practitioner you are only fit for teaching is a bit of insult to teaching as a profession - which is a skill in itself though sadly not a highly respected one.

Maybe the media and journalism are an exception. The colleges are stuffed full of very talented ex programme makers , even newspaper and tx series editors desperate to pay the mortgage in their fifties having been given the heave -ho in the last redundancy round. They are then “replaced” at the lower end by twenty year olds on half the salary .
Those twenty year olds are the tiny minority who’ve managed to get a media job after shelling out a fortune for an often flaky qualification * having been taught by those self same jaded hacks . And so the media carbon cycle of endless decay and renewal continues…

* incredibly I’ve heard of students doing three year BA’s in journalism on courses that aren’t NCTJ of BCTJ accredited which means no chance of the most basic journo job in local radio or newspapers.

[smittims]

On the other hand, ff, those who can do something very well may be quite unable to teach it. This is why I believe books should be written by writers rather than people expert in the subject. Often , however expert they are,they have not the knack of conveying it to others.

[Beresford]

For quite a few years my four favourite living composers happen to be women (although one of them died recently).
They are Kaija Saariaho (d2023), Eliane Radigue (93), Sofia Gubaidulina(93), and Rebecca Saunders.
Nothing against men composers, although I am not keen on bombastic music.

None of these four appear on the track lists of Jenni Murray's first four episodes.
To me these four are the Himalayas of modern music, with something interesting to say, rather than the (?) Cotswolds, where many of her composers live (musically).
I guess Jenni Murray is discussing the sociology of composers, rather than the musical qualities. Her speciality I suppose, what with Radio 3 now having such a social agenda.

[Ian Thumwood]

Just trying to say that English composers are a niche as female composers. Probably both under represented but fair to say few English composers have scaled the heights of someone like Lili Boulanger.

[Master Jacques]

Just trying to say that English composers are a niche as female composers. Probably both under represented but fair to say few English composers have scaled the heights of someone like Lili Boulanger.

That holds no water at all, especially as the fashionable Lili B's alleged "heights" are in the cold light of rational day mere molehills in the presence of mountains. Give me Weir, Lutyens, Maconchy or Grace Williams any day of the week over such solemnly formal hieratics. In France, the forgotten Germaine Tailleferre (1892-1983) was a far better composer, who - unfortunately for her reputation - failed to die "tragically young" of consumption, and didn't have a world-famous sister touting her wares afterwards.

Coming back with something like relief to this Jenni Murray series, it was amusing to note that her guest of honour, Master of the King's Music Errolyn Wallen, completely disagreed with the premise of talking about "women composers" in the 21st century, as both condescending and sexist. Although she was of course polite about it, I'm not sure where this left the wretched programme, which focussed on the usual moneyed suspects (e.g. Mrs Beach and Ms Smyth).

[Master Jacques]

Nothing against men composers, although I am not keen on bombastic music.

You mean I presume such infamously bombastic alpha males as Mozart, Mendelssohn and Ravel? For myself, if I want a bit of good masculine bombast, I go to Ethel Smyth (two of whose short operas are wonderfully good).

Smyth is a tremendous advert for the indomitable will to succeed, which is what marks successful composers (of either sex) out from the wilting failures. All her operas achieved high-profile performance during her lifetime, including at Covent Garden and the Met as well as throughout Germany - and even France - simply because she put her mouth (and money) where her music was. And she was all the better a composer because of that fighting spirit. In that, she resembles Wagner or Berlioz, similar over-achievers.

[smittims]

Hi, Beresford, thanks for your comments . Yes, you're right. I had noticed that both Jenni Murray and Errolyn Wallen avoided discussing the musical quality (or overall artistic value) of the composers under discussion, as that really opens a whole new (and much larger ) can of worms. The aim of the programme was in any case, I expect, to concentrate on opportunities and careers.

I regret I had not heard of Radigue, but I will look out for her music. I have some Saariaho and regard her as a good composer. I'm afraid I don't like Gubaidulina's music and what I've heard of Saunders sounds limited to my ears, but I admit I have not heard all her music.

Since we're mentioning favorite women, The best (or most interesting) in my experience are Priaulx Rainier and Elisabeth Lutyens, though Grace Williams' second symphony, which was played on Through the Night yesterday at 0231 GMT , remains in my view the best work ever written by a woman .

[Ein Heldenleben]

Hi, Beresford, thanks for your comments . Yes, you're right. I had noticed that both Jenni Murray and Errolyn Wallen avoided discussing the musical quality (or overall artistic value) of the composers under discussion, as that really opens a whole new (and much larger ) can of worms. The aim of the programme was in any case, I expect, to concentrate on opportunities and careers.

I regret I had not heard of Radigue, but I will look out for her music. I have some Saariaho and regard her as a good composer. I'm afraid I don't like Gubaidulina's music and what I've heard of Saunders sounds limited to my ears, but I admit I have not heard all her music.

Since we're mentioning favorite women, The best (or most interesting) in my experience are Priaulx Rainier and Elisabeth Lutyens, though Grace Williams' second symphony, which was played on Through the Night yesterday at 0231 GMT , remains in my view the best work ever written by a woman .

There’s never any discussion on whether one composer is better than another on R3 these days. So many threads have come together - post modernism , the complete disbelief in any value being better than another , contempt for the canon. And yet Bach compels
while the 25 for 2025 will be forgotten by the end of the year - so some one is making a judgement.’
They are now playing a Bach Cello suite on the heels of that 25 2025 Bird Of Paradise . Enough said really

[Master Jacques]

And yet Bach compels while the 25 for 2025 will be forgotten by the end of the year - so some one is making a judgement.’
They are now playing a Bach Cello suite on the heels of that 25 2025 Bird Of Paradise . Enough said really

I noted with amusement that Anna Clyne saw fit to describe her little piece The Eye as a "whizzbang". "Damp squib" more like. In any case, I'd forgotten the thing before it even finished, let alone by the end of the year.