Music Matters : Jenni Murray's Women Composers.

[Master Jacques]

I suppose if we were to redefine musicians as working class then my argument doesn’t stand up as so many are the children of musicians - Beethoven , Mozart and indeed Sullivan, I suppose in Beethoven’s day the jobbing musician pretty much was - dressed in livery like a servant. But somehow I can’t quite picture Liszt or Wagner as horny handed sons of toil - nor indeed Paganini . Now of course those children that go to private schools or with wealthier parents who can afford music lessons have an inherent advantage. In the nineties our local public school had , I noticed two Yamaha boudoir grands , the nearest state school a banged up upright. The same is true of drama - there’s even a cadre of UK male acting stars who are Old Etonians.

Before the late nineteenth-century, when such luminaries as Hubert Parry and Henry Irving pushed to have music and acting respectably listed among the "professions" (a curious idea to some then, and probably now, once again) artists were considered - when they were out of livery - outside the social system entirely, somehow dangerous or destabilising ... "bohemians", "charlatans" and the like, no matter how fiscally successful they might on occasion have been.

Our firmer view of class structures - although useful, as you show, for pointing out real inequalities as opposed to sentimental-fantastic ones - is a concept dating back to industrialisation, but no further. Conformity with social norms is not for artists, the art they make, or for those who are influenced by it. That's why the state prefers "diversity training" (teaching conformity to the norm) to musical education (teaching cooperative inter-dependence, and even independence).

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes, there are many female composers one's never heard, but also many more male composers who are equally neglected.

I was criticising the emphasis of Jenni Murray's programme. Over the last few years there have been several programmes of this type on radio and Tv ,amd all done in a faux-naif or disingenuous implication that they are the first to expose this problem . We were challenged to name ten women composers: ha! any regular radio 3 listener could hardly be unaware of Florence Price, Hildegard of Bingen, Louise Farrenc, Judith Weir, Anna Clyne, etc. etc. yet Radio 3 ignores dozens of male composers who merit broadcast. They even ignore two notable women composers: Elisabeth Lutyens and Priaulx Rainier, and there's never any explaantion for this. Maybe Sam Jackson doesn't like atonal music.

Financial success doesn't depend on one's sex, but on writing music that people want. . Last week's composer, Meyerbeer, earned a fortune from composition. Debbie Wiseman and Rachel Portman have done well. Errolyn Wallen said she hasn't been without a commission for 30 years and her music is broadcast somewhere around the world every day. Havergal Brian wrote ten symphonies and was in his seventies before one of them was played. None of this had anythng to do with the composer's sex.

Again the only way to demonstrate whether Radio Three itself discriminated against women composers in the past would be a comprehensive statistical analysis of broadcasts, It’s all anecdotal but I’m pretty sure atonal / serial music is barely played at all most days on Radio 3 these days.

I listened To the Meyerbeer COTW and I was surprised at how workaday his music was . The money is really in this simple crowd pleasing stuff as Debbie Wiseman and Rachel Portman have discovered . Let’s face it 99 % of all the music ever written is competently mediocre.

Upthread some one made a good point about gaming . The global gaming music industry generates $1.4 billion dollars a year . The global revenue from classical music streaming is under half a billion.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Before the late nineteenth-century, when such luminaries as Hubert Parry and Henry Irving pushed to have music and acting respectably listed among the "professions" (a curious idea to some then, and probably now, once again) artists were considered - when they were out of livery - outside the social system entirely, somehow dangerous or destabilising ... "bohemians", "charlatans" and the like, no matter how fiscally successful they might on occasion have been.

Our firmer view of class structures - although useful, as you show, for pointing out real inequalities as opposed to sentimental-fantastic ones - is a concept dating back to industrialisation, but no further. Conformity with social norms is not for artists, the art they make, or for those who are influenced by it. That's why the state prefers "diversity training" (teaching conformity to the norm) to musical education (teaching cooperative inter-dependence, and even independence).

The “role “ model is surely Constant Lambert - so brilliantly caricatured as Hugh Moreland in A Dance To The Music Of Time. And I guess his son Kit - the Who’s record producer. Who wants to be part of the Arts bureaucracy- of which Radio 3 is with the arts council the high (sacrificial ) altar?
Id rather they handed out fivers to street buskers - they might might just as well.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I’d be inclined to try to interpret the issues around women composers as much through the lens of class as through that of sexism.
Both of those factors matter, but, especially, in more recent times, life chances are determined ( I think, happy to be proved wrong) more by class than gender.
But the media have a strong tendency to focus on gender and not on class.

Because focussing on the latter means pretty soon getting into complex issues of economics and inequality and particularly in this country regional inequality. That requires a journalist with an understanding of the complex issues - it’s hard to do and , sadly , these days few will view your hard work. Whereas doing a piece stirring up a hornets nest on gender or race issues is easy and gets lots of clicks.
Spent at least twenty years making quite a few films about economics / planning / business/ regional inequalities in things like Council , school , and health funding for a mass audience-those issues barely get touched in depth these days.
Now press a button on any of the woke issues and the clicks roll in. Meanwhile the fabric of many of our regional towns rot in front of our eyes, the queues at A and E lengthen and the metropolitan media ( of which I was a fully paid up member of course ) are staggered when people vote for Reform and Brexit. It’s been decades in the making.

[french frank]

Yes, there are many female composers one's never heard, but also many more male composers who are equally neglected.

Doesn't this demonstrate the point that 'many more' men have been given the opportunity to 'fail' (relatively) than women?

I was criticising the emphasis of Jenni Murray's programme.

The emphasis on ... women? This reminds me of James Corden's attack on John Humphrys for suggesting that dropping BBC Three would be less of a loss than sacking journalists. Corden's answer: BBC Three isn't for you. You shouldn't even be watching. If you are watching and you don't like it, it's doing it's job.

I wouldn't take that aggressive attitude, but my understanding would be that Woman's Hour aims to educate women in what is 'possible' for them, to champion role models. If they have to put up with being described as 'harridans' &c, so be it. Incidentally, have you ever tried to count the insulting names men have, specifically, for women as against the similar insults women aim at men?

[Master Jacques]

Id rather they handed out fivers to street buskers - they might might just as well.

The idea of actually handing money to performers is the Arts Council's worst nightmare. The massive majority of their funds go to sustaining buildings and - first and foremost - administrators. And yet the likes of Serota keep their cosy niches, whatever the government. Somebody in the know said to me last week, that he's been retained as "a safe pair of hands". My reply was, that you could say the same thing of the Boston Strangler.

Focusing on the sex of a composer is Radio 3's great evasion tactic just now, a smokescreen to disguise their total lack of interest in contemporary art composers, let alone the larger question of what on earth the station is supposed to exist to do, over and above providing middle-of-the-road "classical pap" for middle class muggles.

[french frank]

I’d be inclined to try to interpret the issues around women composers as much through the lens of class as through that of sexism.

Historically, I'd say the two were very closely bound up. In wealthier households - no surprise - everything was easier (but perhaps with daughters having to compete against sons?). In poorer households things were more brutal, valuable opportunities non-existent. In the age of welfare and universal education there has been a more general levelling up of opportunity.

But the media have a strong tendency to focus on gender and not on class.

The distinction having been less problematic in the case of gender? I pose the question merely since anecdote can mislead (anecdotes are often used merely to 'prove' a point).

[Ein Heldenleben]

Doesn't this demonstrate the point that 'many more' men have been given the opportunity to 'fail' (relatively) than women?



The emphasis on ... women? This reminds me of James Corden's attack on John Humphrys for suggesting that dropping BBC Three would be less of a loss than sacking journalists. Corden's answer: BBC Three isn't for you. You shouldn't even be watching. If you are watching and you don't like it, it's doing it's job.

I wouldn't take that aggressive attitude, but my understanding would be that Woman's Hour aims to educate women in what is 'possible' for them, to champion role models. If they have to put up with being described as 'harridans' &c, so be it. Incidentally, have you ever tried to count the insulting names men have, specifically, for women as against the similar insults women aim at men?

I’ve never heard Woman’s Hour producers or presenters described as “harridans.” I was going to say no one would dare - but like a lot of good journalists they don’t back away from confrontation and standing their ground - Emma Barnett being a classic example.
The series is much more about contemporary stories and issues that have bearing on Women’s lives - with some important public service coverage of medical issues , things like FGM, inequality . It can be worthy and a bit predictable (even depressing) but the “role model “ thing - no it’s richer than that. It’s also taking on board some of the feminist concerns over transgender issues and the way the word woman appears to becoming erased from large swathes of the NHS.

[french frank]

I’ve never heard Woman’s Hour producers or presenters described as “harridans.” I was going to say no one would dare

You just said it! I'm not sure I've ever heard WH, but I approve of what you describe. The same issues are debated in the wider world, but where they affect women more than men it seems right that there should be additional space for women's focus (and right that men should listen, in this case!). That there has thought to have been reasons for special 'spaces' for women seems to me to be a response to social realities, a fact which some may ponder on.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The Woman’s Hour ref reminds me of a course I went on years ago about “working smarter “ . We had to divide our time into one hour segments and write up a timetable. I was a young tv director / producer and single . And it went : I 09,00 roll out of bed ..10 to 7 put in quite a serious shift on a live show - no lunchtime boozing as I was directing live. Then 7 - 11 hit the club , pub and restaurant. Then repeat until weekend. Maybe the odd weekend shift on overtime.

In contrast a Woman’s Hour producer I was paired with had 06.00 -09.00 (while listening to R4 ) get kids ready for school , prep lunch , drive . 10-6 work . 6.30 - kids again , meal , homework , bed at about 21,30

We had then to exchange timetables. Her tactful comment “I’d forgotten how much free time bachelors had. “

Sadly (?) it all came to an end with parenthood and promotion. But maybe better for overall health.

I wonder if all this contains an important clue as to why there are fewer female composers.

[teamsaint]

I’ve never heard Woman’s Hour producers or presenters described as “harridans.” I was going to say no one would dare - but like a lot of good journalists they don’t back away from confrontation and standing their ground - Emma Barnett being a classic example.
The series is much more about contemporary stories and issues that have bearing on Women’s lives - with some important public service coverage of medical issues , things like FGM, inequality . It can be worthy and a bit predictable (even depressing) but the “role model “ thing - no it’s richer than that. It’s also taking on board some of the feminist concerns over transgender issues and the way the word woman appears to becoming erased from large swathes of the NHS.

Not on what are perceived as Womens issues perhaps( and rightly) , but I’d suggest that , by omission at least , that BBC journalists back away from confrontation much too often .

[teamsaint]

Because focussing on the latter means pretty soon getting into complex issues of economics and inequality and particularly in this country regional inequality. That requires a journalist with an understanding of the complex issues - it’s hard to do and , sadly , these days few will view your hard work. Whereas doing a piece stirring up a hornets nest on gender or race issues is easy and gets lots of clicks.
Spent at least twenty years making quite a few films about economics / planning / business/ regional inequalities in things like Council , school , and health funding for a mass audience-those issues barely get touched in depth these days.
Now press a button on any of the woke issues and the clicks roll in. Meanwhile the fabric of many of our regional towns rot in front of our eyes, the queues at A and E lengthen and the metropolitan media ( of which I was a fully paid up member of course ) are staggered when people vote for Reform and Brexit. It’s been decades in the making.

Valuable insights there, EH, which are certainly close to what I see in my working lifeThe questions around where the liberal left is now, and the primary focuses of its concerns are not popular ones to ask,it seems.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Valuable insights there, EH, which are certainly close to what I see in my working lifeThe questions around where the liberal left is now, and the primary focuses of its concerns are not popular ones to ask,it seems.

When , as a journalist , you talk to people about their concerns - they are largely the NHS, the prospects for their children , the fabric of their towns , and yes immigration, They never mention transgender issues, discrimination , or the lack of female composers on Radio 3. The moment I realised the liberal media world view was out of date was during the Referendum when I came across a colleague interviewing an Asian Doctor about his profound concerns on levels of EU immigration. That really surprised me,

[Serial_Apologist]

Incidentally, have you ever tried to count the insulting names men have, specifically, for women as against the similar insults women aim at men?

This was one of the defining issues brought to one's attention as a bloke when feminism first began leading most of us to question our underlying prejudices and condescending assumptions. But is it altogether true? Many of the terms used to degrade women are based on supposed animalistic comparisons and clichés, and thus repeatable without transgressing "bad language" rules - poor unfortunate animal world! - bitch, cow etc, whereas those for me are associated with parts of male anatomy - {apart notoriously, from the "c" word) and are thus considered less mentionable in so-called "polite society", such as this.

[french frank]

But is it altogether true?

What is, these days? :-) I don't think I'll pursue this particular line, much though I find it a rich source of material.