Music Matters : Jenni Murray's Women Composers.

[vinteuil]

... if I thought they were interested in conflict, 'listener fury', 'BBC attacked' I felt we would be judged by the way the press treated the story not by what I was saying. I tended to be rather vague and not really know what they were talking about. No story.

... I think you would have been rather good in HM Diplomatic Service

[Ein Heldenleben]

Nothing 'keeps me away' other than a perception that the subjects wouldn't interest me or that if they did I could access the necessary information in another form; but I might be fascinated, just as I might get hooked on The Archers. I broaden my horizons by reading the Daily Mail and Owen Jones in The Guardian



That may as much be about media presentation in general. I used to be contacted regularly by the press for interviews about FoR3 but if I thought they were interested in conflict, 'listener fury', 'BBC attacked' I felt we would be judged by the way the press treated the story not by what I was saying. I tended to be rather vague and not really know what they were talking about. No story.

The press trying to get a story - who would have thought it ? Think you might have passed up an opportunity there. I only wish a few BBC employees and especially high profile stars showed your commendable restraint.

[Suffolkcoastal]

Class privilege, as mentioned here, is undoubtedly one, personality another (Havergal Brian and Fartein Valen were notoriously shy and diffident) ; but linking it to 'the battle of the sexes' is more topical and gets it on air, where a programme about shyness probably wouldn't; any more than a programme about anti-male sexism by women

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I can concur that class/education privilege has and still seems to be present in this country. Having experienced it first hand, being sniffed at by a known composer & writer when he found out that I was largely self-taught musically & completely self-taught as a composer. It all gets very frustrating, some people seem to see self-taught as detrimental especially in music. I'm sure many in music see 'self-taught' working class against my name & do not believe that I can compose straight from my head into full score, without 'training'.

[Ein Heldenleben]

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I can concur that class/education privilege has and still seems to be present in this country. Having experienced it first hand, being sniffed at by a known composer & writer when he found out that I was largely self-taught musically & completely self-taught as a composer. It all gets very frustrating, some people seem to see self-taught as detrimental especially in music. I'm sure many in music see 'self-taught' working class against my name & do not believe that I can compose straight from my head into full score, without 'training'.

I have an essentially unprovable theory that university academic music courses destroy more talent than they create …It’s a giant Ponzi scheme.

[french frank]

... I think you would have been rather good in HM Diplomatic Service

You should know :-) It was never suggested as an option in my young day so I followed the entirely logical route of civil servant (sub-clerical grade), university teacher, newspaper sub. From the ridiculous to the ridiculous, via the sublime. Maybe a humble union negotiator might have suited?

[teamsaint]

I have an essentially unprovable theory that university academic music courses destroy more talent than they create …It’s a giant Ponzi scheme.

My daughter did music at a Russell Group university. Generally a good experience I think , but she wasn’t allowed to take the conducting module because, er, she wasn’t good enough at conducting !!!!
The point of the module of course was to teach students how to conduct.

[Ian Thumwood]

Two points to add here....

1. I think classical composition has alot to learn from jazz where women had a prominent role in composition. I could rattle off a wealth of names of female jazz composers who are vert prominent in the field to the extent that no one is really bothered if they are male or female. I don't this is matters in 2025 and hasn't for a very long time. We are in a position in jazz where female artists are frequently leaders in their field.


2. I am always surprised that no one ever offers a comparison with female performers in classical music . Talented they may be but it is noticeable how many are photogenic. Quite a few are willing to dress provocatively to promote their music. I feel female performers get alot of attention and you rarely come across a new female artist who looks like Kathy Burke. For me, there is a counter balance insofar that young female performers have a marketing value well beyondtm their male counterparts. Fair play to them but let's not pretend that female artists are neglected in a way that their composing counterparts may be / may have been.


The example of Taylor Swift amused me. I think female artists are over presented in pop music. In my opinion it does not matter.

I love seeing Brian 's name continually being thrown into the mix as someone whose music is neglected at the expense of female composers. It is really amusing because I think there is a reason his music is forgotten. No different from the case of overlooked female composers. They are forgotten for a reason and that is because they are bang average Also , it is not as if there are not enough crap English composers to choose from ! . Other than Delius, the whole lot should be binned. Never been aware of the question being asked as whether to choose between Brian and Fanny Mendelssohn . It is not a question of either /or.


The best thing about Ms Mendelssohn is that she had an amusing first name ! Better to celebrate someone like Salky Beamish who writes music you want to hear.

[smittims]

I know you like to make provocative claims , Ian , but as a matter of fact Brian's music is not forgotten. It has been very successfully revived in recent decades. I don't know what you mean by 'bang average' but Brian was one of the most original of composers. When you consider that when he wrote his first work of substance Verdi and Dvorak were still alive, and when he wrote his last work Stockhausen and Boulez were well into their middle periods, he retained his originality far more than his contemporaries (Bantock and Bax, for instance).

You are welcome to your opinions but I don't think you have actually listened to much of the composers you want 'binned' ; I don't think I am the only one here who feels such remarks lack credibility.

And Sally (or Salky) Beamish does not write music I like to hear. That is also a matter of fact. .

[Ein Heldenleben]

Sally Beamish a better composer than Havergal Brian , You heard it first here folks .

[vinteuil]

I have an essentially unprovable theory that university academic music courses destroy more talent than they create …It’s a giant Ponzi scheme.

... I like your theory : certainly the undergraduates I knew who were most lively on the musical scene often were not reading music. And they weren't 'amateur' musicians - some have gone on to be world-class professionals

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[Ein Heldenleben]

My daughter did music at a Russell Group university. Generally a good experience I think , but she wasn’t allowed to take the conducting module because, er, she wasn’t good enough at conducting !!!!
The point of the module of course was to teach students how to conduct.

See that’s what I dislike about Academe. Conducting comes into the try it for a bit of experience category. If nothing else she would would learn a bit about the skill. Conducting is all a bit of a con anyway unlike playing a Beethoven Piano Sonata.

How do they know she’s “no good “ at it ? Neither , in terms of beating time , was Furtwangler.

Also rather strange for a University , usually the High Priests of PC , to deny a woman this opportunity isn’t It?

[Ein Heldenleben]

... I like your theory : certainly the undergraduates I knew who were most lively on the musical scene often were not reading music. And they weren't 'amateur' musicians - some have gone on to be world-class professionals

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They are producing far more musicians than there are jobs for to sustain their own academic base. Equally it’s a great academic training and plenty of graduate musicians have successful careers in the media, the City etc.

[oddoneout]

... I like your theory : certainly the undergraduates I knew who were most lively on the musical scene often were not reading music. And they weren't 'amateur' musicians - some have gone on to be world-class professionals

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One of the members of my family falls into that group. And another who did the academic route and won several prizes along the way didn't in the end make a career of music...
I always remember Humphrey Burton's disbelief and annoyance at Emma Johnson's insistence that despite wining Young Musician she was going to read English as originally intended, not switch to music.

[french frank]

Equally it’s a great academic training and plenty of graduate musicians have successful careers in the media, the City etc.

Also equally, I suspect that an academic music course is appealing to many students who have some musical performing ability and 'love music', but no intention of becoming practising musicians. Much as others might take a law degree without intending a career in law.

[Ein Heldenleben]

One of the members of my family falls into that group. And another who did the academic route and won several prizes along the way didn't in the end make a career of music...
I always remember Humphrey Burton's disbelief and annoyance at Emma Johnson's insistence that despite wining Young Musician she was going to read English as originally intended, not switch to music.

You used to be able to do joint hons in Music and Eng Lit at York . I think you still can at Cambridge. Quite an attractive degree that.