'I vow to thee, my country'

[Serial_Apologist]

It’s so much more complicated that. The same Greek mothers that Pericles addresses are also said to have stood at the back of a battlefield with raised skirts inviting any cowardly retreaters to climb back into the womb. Suffragettes were amongst the many middle class women who handed out white feathers in WW1 ; and if you’d called the teenage girls who tied themselves to anti aircraft guns at Stalingrad so as to keep firing “feminists “ they would have laughed at you.

I'm not so sure that it is that much more complicated. Nation-to-nation wars and wars of conquest were, in relative historical terms, still new aspects of human existence at the time of the Greeks. How much do we really know about how lessons of history, biblical and other, were or were not taught to younger generations? (I really am ignorant on such matters! ) Secondly, ideals of heroicism had long been perpetrated by ruling orders for purposes of securing and reinforcing ideological back-up for military adventures. Trouncing female compassion - one positive consequence of women not having been nurtured for possible warfare - alongside the worries and insecurities of family raising alone - by appeal to patriotic fervour was one way they got away with it! Without evidence to the contrary people tend naturally towards trusting their fellows (what things motivate people to lie? Human nature? Really??) and believing what they are told so long as it comes from "authoritative sources". Tests have been shown to demonstrate how easily people can be made to carry out the most unthinking acts when instructed by someone in uniform. A uniform is NOT a natural means of conveying authority: it is a contrivance, a mediated one.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Based on a knowledge of 'modern' (19th/20th c) literature alone, perhaps, but Spanish Golden Age literature would have ranked close to Shakespeare. I would guess the USA ranks fairly high because US culture impacts hugely on the rest of the western world - and the Asian literatures are absent because in the west we don't know them.

Huge debate about USA placing . Putting James in with Britain skewed things admittedly.

As for Spanish Márquez and Borges had been read but only I had attempted Cervantes.

On Novelists France and Uk equal with maybe the former shading it but swung by Shakespeare , Milton , Wordsworth and Keats etc .

have to say it wasn’t very scientific ..l

[french frank]

As for Spanish Márquez and Borges had been read but only I had attempted Cervantes,

In addition to Cervantes: Lope de Vega, Calderón, Quevedo. Garcilaso de la Vega, Góngora, Juan Ruiz de Alarcón, Tirso de Molina (early promoter of the Don Juan legend) .... all Golden Age texts dating from a second-year course still on my shelves. But all these 'Best' lists are interesting as revealing something: like the world's greatest novels: The Da Vinci Code, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone ...

[Ein Heldenleben]

In addition to Cervantes: Lope de Vega, Calderón, Quevedo. Garcilaso de la Vega, Góngora, Juan Ruiz de Alarcón, Tirso de Molina (early promoter of the Don Juan legend) .... all Golden Age texts dating from a second-year course still on my shelves. But all these 'Best' lists are interesting as revealing something: like the world's greatest novels: The Da Vinci Code, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone ...

Yes I saw that list . Completely baffled me but for many people these are perhaps some of the few works of fiction they’ve ever read .

[french frank]

Completely baffled me but for many people these are perhaps some of the few works of fiction they’ve ever read .

The question to pose being, "When you suggest these are the BEST novels, what do you base that opinion on?". It's like when people say, "Make America Great Again": one would want to know what do you think makes America great? People latch to 'thoughts' like they latch on to junk food.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The question to pose being, "When you suggest these are the BEST novels, what do you base that opinion on?". It's like when people say, "Make America Great Again": one would want to know what do you think makes America great? People latch to 'thoughts' like they latch on to junk food.

The response to the entreaty Make America Great Again is : in what sense is it not great? It has by far the most powerful armed forces the world has ever seen , the worlds largest and most profitable corporations, the largest economy, and its tech companies and popular culture dominate the world in a way not witnessed since the Romans.

[french frank]

The response to the entreaty Make America Great Again is : in what sense is it not great? It has by far the most powerful armed forces the world has ever seen , the worlds largest and most profitable corporations, the largest economy, and its tech companies and popular culture dominate the world in a way not witnessed since the Romans.

I mention both examples, not to be 'political' but to speculate on how the psychology of 'the masses', 'the people', 'the common man' - whatever term one prefers - works. People take in certain facts, they process them in some way and form their opinions. But why would they not apply any critical faculty they might possess to justify their conclusions, to themselves at least, and be able to articulate them when asked? At what point do people say: I know enough to form my definitive conclusion? I'm also interested in how the word 'taste' - one of the five senses - comes to be applied to what one likes and dislikes as between, say, Beethoven and Mozart, pop and classical, watercolours and oil paintings, Glasgow and Edinburgh (Bristol and Bath ); as distinct from, say, broccoli and beetroot.?

[vinteuil]

I'm also interested in how the word 'taste' - one of the five senses - comes to be applied to what one likes and dislikes as between, say, Beethoven and Mozart, pop and classical, watercolours and oil paintings, Glasgow and Edinburgh (Bristol and Bath ); as distinct from, say, broccoli and beetroot.?

... and not just in English. One of the exasperating phrases one regularly encounters when trying to find out why and how certain performers of the time should play Couperin, Rameau &c - "it's just a question of playing with le bon goût." As if that explained anything other than circularly...

.

[cloughie]

It's all in the eye of the beholder, I believe. My French husband started visiting England three years ago...so far he has seen Sussex, the Cotswolds and Suffolk. He rates them far more highly aesthetically than the French countryside.

Difficult to make comparisons. The UK and France have different geographical sizes and geological formations. France has more than twice the geographical area of the UK and slightly lower population and though it has a large proportion of flat, not very interesting agricultural areas it also has some very attractive and spectacular scenery, and also variety within its wide boundaries. Having visited many parts of both I sit on the fence or maybe ferry and settle for a score draw!

[oliver sudden]

It's all in the eye of the beholder, I believe. My French husband started visiting England three years ago...so far he has seen Sussex, the Cotswolds and Suffolk. He rates them far more highly aesthetically than the French countryside.

Quite right, the grass is definitely greener for starters.

[LMcD]

Quite right, the grass is definitely greener for starters.

Here on the Suffolk coast we're particularly proud of our 'Big Skies'.

[oliver sudden]

At what point do people say: I know enough to form my definitive conclusion?

In my case: embarrassingly early, and not _that_ long before the point at which I gave up thinking any ‘conclusions’ I might come to are anything but provisional even solely for myself.

I'm also interested in how the word 'taste' - one of the five senses - comes to be applied to what one likes …

(Plenty more than five, although I’m glad it didn’t end up being nociception doing that job.)

[Ein Heldenleben]

Quite right, the grass is definitely greener for starters.

Yes if you like rye grass. Or you could view it as the sad result of centuries of over grazing . One consequence of which is France’s provably much greater biodiversity.

[LMcD]

Yes if you like rye grass. Or you could view it as the sad result of centuries of over grazing . One consequence of which is France’s provably much greater biodiversity.

As post no. 56 mentions a visit to Sussex, perhaps we might get some inside-track information on this matter.

[Ein Heldenleben]

As post no. 56 mentions a visit to Sussex, perhaps we might get some inside-track information on this matter.

It’s the predominant type of agricultural Grass , fast growing and productive allowing for several hay cuts a year. Think it was first developed in Italy . But boy is it boring.