'I vow to thee, my country'

[teamsaint]

I also used to sing this at school - usually at the end-of-term service. I don't think I could sing the words now, they are so much of another age, born of different circumstances.

Living in 2024, I find the notion of 'patriotism' something I need to have explained to me. What does it entail?

I assume that you mean that you need to have somebody else’s understanding of that word explained ?
You must have your own understanding(s) of what that word can mean, and quite often be able to apply a useful contextual structure ( is that a thing? ) to the usage.
Your comment got me to thinking about ways that the word might usefully be thought about , using various critical approaches or techniques. A structuralist approach needs a text for example, but the text could be a news article , tv news report, movie, song, or whatever.
Feminist approaches might also be interesting, but the word in isolation isn’t terribly helpful. Post Modernists might disagree ?
Billy Bragg’s The Progressive Patriot might be a useful work/ artefact for contemplating this.

I’m not in an area of expertise, but single words can be extremely powerful, misunderstood, dangerous in the wrong context, and certainly if misused out of context.

[mopsus]

I think I have only sung this a couple of times at a church service - and this in decades of attending and singing at fairly traditional C of E churches. I'm not very sorry about this.

I love Imogen Holst's account: 'During Jupiter the charwomen working in the corridors put down their scrubbing-brushes and began to dance.' Presumably this was in one of the outer sections.

[Serial_Apologist]

I assume that you mean that you need to have somebody else’s understanding of that word explained ?
You must have your own understanding(s) of what that word can mean, and quite often be able to apply a useful contextual structure ( is that a thing? ) to the usage.
Your comment got me to thinking about ways that the word might usefully be thought about , using various critical approaches or techniques. A structuralist approach needs a text for example, but the text could be a news article , tv news report, movie, song, or whatever.
Feminist approaches might also be interesting, but the word in isolation isn’t terribly helpful. Post Modernists might disagree ?
Billy Bragg’s The Progressive Patriot might be a useful work/ artefact for contemplating this.

I’m not in an area of expertise, but single words can be extremely powerful, misunderstood, dangerous in the wrong context, and certainly if misused out of context.

I would say the question "Am I patriotic?" resolves onto listing the things one likes and dislikes about one's country of birth above other nations, rather than the importance conventionally attributed to the usual suspects such as the monarchy, the political set-up, food, landscapes and architecture, language and people. If the dislikes outnumber the likes one could be said not to be patriotic. Under such a definition "I vow to thee my country" is an almighty expectation short of risk of imminent invasion.

[smittims]

Interesting discussion,thanks. I'm left with my only real objection, the purely musical alteration of the tune, no substitute fot the ever-climbing (if unsingable) original, which I find so uplifting. Also, I always feel it ought to go a little faster, with a 'swing', closer to VW's 'Where the great Vessels sailing' in A Sea Symphony.

Incidentally, Vaughan Williams did write his own tune (Abinger) to Cecil Spring Rice's poem, but I don't think I've ever heard it sung.

[french frank]

I would say the question "Am I patriotic?" resolves onto listing the things one likes and dislikes about one's country of birth above other nations, rather than the importance conventionally attributed to the usual suspects such as the monarchy, the political set-up, food, landscapes and architecture, language and people. If the dislikes outnumber the likes one could be said not to be patriotic. Under such a definition "I vow to thee my country" is an almighty expectation short of risk of imminent invasion.

And everyone has their own life experiences which mould those likes and dislikes. But what is the point of patriotism other than, as you say, when the chips are down and we face invasion/war and 'our country needs us'? Is it 'unpratriotic' to in fact side with a putative 'enemy'? Who decides on who the enemy is? I tend to agree with Johnson when he said patriotism is 'the last refuge of the scoundrel', but that's only based on what I think someone means by patriotism and what it entails for them e.g. "taking back control", or 'Britain first'. I would indeed regard such proponents as 'scoundrels'. That doesn't stop me from being respecful or grateful to those who died in war in order to defend us; but that doesn't make me patriotic in any meaningful sense. Like political parties, no country is perfect: in most cases one has to take the country of one's birth for better or worse. I certainly wouldn't set the UK above other nations.

[Ein Heldenleben]

And everyone has their own life experiences which mould those likes and dislikes. But what is the point of patriotism other than, as you say, when the chips are down and we face invasion/war and 'our country needs us'? Is it 'unpratriotic' to in fact side with a putative 'enemy'? Who decides on who the enemy is? I tend to agree with Johnson when he said patriotism is 'the last refuge of the scoundrel', but that's only based on what I think someone means by patriotism and what it entails for them e.g. "taking back control", or 'Britain first'. I would indeed regard such proponents as 'scoundrels'. That doesn't stop me from being respecful or grateful to those who died in war in order to defend us; but that doesn't make me patriotic in any meaningful sense. Like political parties, no country is perfect: in most cases one has to take the country of one's birth for better or worse. I certainly wouldn't set the UK above other nations.

ooh I would set it above plenty . And I’m largely Irish.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Also hijacked as a theme with new words - 'World in Union' - for the Rugby World Cup.
Has anybody ever found the words of 'Land Of Hope And Glory' heretical or obscene, I wonder?

Land of Hope and Glory is explicitly Imperialist isn’t it ?
I Vow is just not very good Poetry really. A good example of how bad verse and obvious emotion are usually close bedfellows

I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love;
The love that asks no questions, the love that stands the test,
That lays upon the altar the dearest and the best;
The love that never falters, the love that pays the price,
The love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice


I think it was Paul Fussell in the Great War and Modern Memory who theorized that the idea of death in war as a semi religious “sacrifice” first came to the fore in WW1 . The idea of laying down your life for your country , giving an explicitly religious gloss to what might otherwise be a meaningless death amongst many others gave the bereaved some comfort. The word “sacrifice “ is still bandied about in the context of modern war. Up until WW1 and conscription being a soldier was a very unrespected profession and deaths abroad were usually marked by rather warlike memorials - battle scenes on monuments etc. All part of Britain’s Imperial glory etc .
But the scale of death of WW1 and the sense of futility many felt about trench warfare threw up a need to lend it some meaning . Out of that all that came verse like his, a good deal of better verse , the Menin Monument , the Cenotaph and the extraordinary phenomenon of the progress of the Unknown Soldier to Westminster Abbey . Also the poppy which my Grandfather , an Infantryman from 1914 -18 in an Irish regiment , refused to wear on the grounds that Haig never gave a Tinker’s cuss about his troops when he was in charge of them . I don’t suppose he was very keen on the Hymn either,

[french frank]

ooh I would set it above plenty . And I’m largely Irish.

Well, I meant 'above all other nations', of course. We have a lot to be thankful and grateful for but being above 'plenty' sets the bar dismally low . I react against any form of 'we're better than you' or my own perception of someone who thinks they are better than others in some respect. Just be grateful for and enjoy your superiority and shut up about it .

[Ein Heldenleben]

Well, I meant 'above all other nations', of course. We have a lot to be thankful and grateful for but being above 'plenty' sets the bar dismally low . I react against any form of 'we're better than you' or my own perception of someone who thinks they are better than others in some respect. Just be grateful for and enjoy your superiority and shut up about it .

I wouldn’t set us above other nations that are democracies , have a free press etc . There are illogical intangible reasons why one might set this country above others but usually when one drills down .. beauty of countryside , Literature , you realise France carries the palm.

[LMcD]

I wouldn’t set us above other nations that are democracies , have a free press etc . There are illogical intangible reasons why one might set this country above others but usually when one drills down .. beauty of countryside , Literature , you realise France carries the palm.

Would that be the Palme D'Or? (My favourite films include the 1986 versions of 'Jean de Florette' and 'Manon des Sources')

[Ein Heldenleben]

Would that be the Palme D'Or? (My favourite films include the 1986 versions of 'Jean de Florette' and 'Manon des Sources')

By an extraordinary co-incidence I read precisely those two books in French during lockdown. Which gives you some idea of my command of the language (its pretty simple French )

[Master Jacques]

Literature , you realise France carries the palm.

So they tell us. And who dares doubt them?

I had fun writing an article for Wexford a couple of years back, about changing French attitudes to Shakespeare. They were really quite tolerant at first, until other countries outside England started touting Our Bard as the numero uno, at which point 'Shagspeer' became (in Voltaire's immortal words), "that drunken savage". This of course, gifted me the title of my essay!!

[vinteuil]

I tend to agree with Johnson when he said patriotism is 'the last refuge of the scoundrel'

... a helpful corrective, I hope (thank you, wiki) as to what Dr Johnson actually meant -

"In 1774, he printed The Patriot, a critique of what he viewed as false patriotism. On the evening of 7 April 1775, he made a famous statement: "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." The line was not, as is widely believed, about patriotism in general but rather what Johnson saw as the false use of the term "patriotism" by William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham (the patriot minister) and his supporters. Johnson opposed most "self-professed patriots" in general but valued what he considered "true" patriotism."

[Master Jacques]

... a helpful corrective, I hope (thank you, wiki) as to what Dr Johnson actually meant -

"In 1774, he printed The Patriot, a critique of what he viewed as false patriotism. On the evening of 7 April 1775, he made a famous statement: "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." The line was not, as is widely believed, about patriotism in general but rather what Johnson saw as the false use of the term "patriotism" by William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham (the patriot minister) and his supporters. Johnson opposed most "self-professed patriots" in general but valued what he considered "true" patriotism."

Thank you for this vital correction, almost certainly the most useful thing I shall learn today. It always sounded a very odd (and cynically out of character) remark for Dr. J. to have made, but the context makes great sense of it.

[Ein Heldenleben]

So they tell us. And who dares doubt them?

I had fun writing an article for Wexford a couple of years back, about changing French attitudes to Shakespeare. They were really quite tolerant at first, until other countries outside England started touting Our Bard as the numero uno, at which point 'Shagspeer' became (in Voltaire's immortal words), "that drunken savage". This of course, gifted me the title of my essay!!

Filling in time once at work and in an industry obsessed with lists and prizes we had a discussion about which country overall had the “best “ culture . We restricted ourselves to Western culture as we were pretty much in (even greater ) ignorance of anything else.

we came up with

CLASSICAL Music
1. Germany and Austria ??
2. Italy
3. France
4. Russia
5, Britain and Ireland
6.USA

Literature
1.Britain and Ireland
2.France
3.Russia
4.Germany
5.Italy
6.USA
7.Spain including Latin America (though I was the only one who’d read any Spanish literature)


Art
1.Italy
2.France
3.Holland (but see 7)
4.Spain
5.Germany and Austria
6.USA
7.Britain - (though intense sidetrack on Flemish Art which revealed lack of knowledge of ether they were Dutch or Belgian)

Popular Culture
1.USA
2. GB and Ireland
3,France
4.Spain inc LA
5.Italy

on this arbitrary basis (and in complete ignorance of the cultures of India and China) France emerged as top nation.