'I vow to thee, my country'

[silvestrione]

We've had the first stanza, but the second is rather different:

"And there's another country, I've heard of long ago
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know
We may not count her armies, we may not see her king
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering
And soul by soul, and silently her shining bounds increase
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace."

Not great poetry, of course (though one of the rhymes is striking). But different sentiments, a more interesting development.
And no, even so, I don't like the hymn.

[MickyD]

I wouldn’t set us above other nations that are democracies , have a free press etc . There are illogical intangible reasons why one might set this country above others but usually when one drills down .. beauty of countryside , Literature , you realise France carries the palm.

It's all in the eye of the beholder, I believe. My French husband started visiting England three years ago...so far he has seen Sussex, the Cotswolds and Suffolk. He rates them far more highly aesthetically than the French countryside.

[Ein Heldenleben]

We've had the first stanza, but the second is rather different:

"And there's another country, I've heard of long ago
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know
We may not count her armies, we may not see her king
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering
And soul by soul, and silently her shining bounds increase
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace."

Not great poetry, of course (though one of the rhymes is striking). But different sentiments, a more interesting development.
And no, even so, I don't like the hymn.

Don’t you think the first couplet is rather contrived ? Why was the the country heard of long ago ? What is the other country ? If a Christian heaven how is its ways of “gentleness “ to be squared with the Crusades or indeed any war ? Where does this poem stand on War ? Is death in it a “sacrifice “ as in stanza one and if so how is that theologically to be squared with “the paths of peace” in stanza 2 ? So it’s ok to die in some war because in heaven you’ll find peace . It’s so confused I’m not surprised the C of E rather spurns it. I once heard it described by a vicar as “not a hymn” and not for my church thanks.

The alliteration in five is good but the poem’s a con isn’t it ?

[french frank]

... a helpful corrective, I hope (thank you, wiki) as to what Dr Johnson actually meant

Indeed. I read that article before posting and gave two examples of whom I personally thought of as scoundrels. And I understand why people don’t bother to edit their quote when using their mobiles It’s a pain!

[Serial_Apologist]

Land of Hope and Glory is explicitly Imperialist isn’t it ?
I Vow is just not very good Poetry really. A good example of how bad verse and obvious emotion are usually close bedfellows

I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love;
The love that asks no questions, the love that stands the test,
That lays upon the altar the dearest and the best;
The love that never falters, the love that pays the price,
The love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice


I think it was Paul Fussell in the Great War and Modern Memory who theorized that the idea of death in war as a semi religious “sacrifice” first came to the fore in WW1 . The idea of laying down your life for your country , giving an explicitly religious gloss to what might otherwise be a meaningless death amongst many others gave the bereaved some comfort. The word “sacrifice “ is still bandied about in the context of modern war. Up until WW1 and conscription being a soldier was a very unrespected profession and deaths abroad were usually marked by rather warlike memorials - battle scenes on monuments etc. All part of Britain’s Imperial glory etc .
But the scale of death of WW1 and the sense of futility many felt about trench warfare threw up a need to lend it some meaning . Out of that all that came verse like his, a good deal of better verse , the Menin Monument , the Cenotaph and the extraordinary phenomenon of the progress of the Unknown Soldier to Westminster Abbey . Also the poppy which my Grandfather , an Infantryman from 1914 -18 in an Irish regiment , refused to wear on the grounds that Haig never gave a Tinker’s cuss about his troops when he was in charge of them . I don’t suppose he was very keen on the Hymn either,

Magnificent post, for which many thanks - especially in regards to the likely origination of the idea of self-sacrifice in war providing some kind of solace, which I had never thought about. I don't see it, myself - I think it makes schmucks out of us all, but most unforgiveably close ones.

[Serial_Apologist]

Filling in time once at work and in an industry obsessed with lists and prizes we had a discussion about which country overall had the “best “ culture . We restricted ourselves to Western culture as we were pretty much in (even greater ) ignorance of anything else.

we came up with

CLASSICAL Music
1. Germany and Austria 🇦🇹
2. Italy
3. France
4. Russia
5, Britain and Ireland
6.USA

Literature
1.Britain and Ireland
2.France
3.Russia
4.Germany
5.Italy
6.USA
7.Spain including Latin America (though I was the only one who’d read any Spanish literature)


Art
1.Italy
2.France
3.Holland (but see 7)
4.Spain
5.Germany and Austria
6.USA
7.Britain - (though intense sidetrack on Flemish Art which revealed lack of knowledge of ether they were Dutch or Belgian)

Popular Culture
1.USA
2. GB and Ireland
3,France
4.Spain inc LA
5.Italy

on this arbitrary basis (and in complete ignorance of the cultures of India and China) France emerged as top nation.

It's a sad thing that India, SE Asia, China and Japan don't get a look in there: presumably because in many regards of missing present-day criteria pre-dating the West's hegemonisation of art forms and its definition of genres marginalising spiritual practices under "religion". I would certainly place Japan higher than the USA for its contribution to the arts, especially in literature, architecture, horticulture and landscape.

[Serial_Apologist]

We've had the first stanza, but the second is rather different:

"And there's another country, I've heard of long ago
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know
We may not count her armies, we may not see her king
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering
And soul by soul, and silently her shining bounds increase
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace."

Not great poetry, of course (though one of the rhymes is striking). But different sentiments, a more interesting development.
And no, even so, I don't like the hymn.

Absurd claims on behalf of Britain, which was surely the other country referenced there - "her shining bounds increase" effectively being a justification for the Empire, on whose exploitation reformist politics at home probably pre-empted growth of revolutionary politics, and certainly a pretext for inculcating racism among our indigenous working classes.

[smittims]

Alan Bennett recently said that he could love his friends ,the place where he lived or was born, but he couldn't say he 'loved his Country'. I think he has the fictional Guy Burgess say this in 'An Englishman Abroad', (though it may be a quotation from one of Burgess' letters).

I've only ever lived in England , I've only once been outside the UK , I've met very few foreigners (two Americans, one Russian, only in one brief meeting each) so I don't think I could compare England with anywhere enough to say I love it above others. But surely 'patriotism ' can include, say, wanting the British economy to prosper, by 'buying British' or encouraging British business, as part of a larger wish for Britain to be a respected an secure place for our friends and descendants to live. Or is that something other than patrioritsm'? Maybe the problem is the word and its associations with Xenophobia and empire-building, something not confined to Britain, if you look at the history of China, Egypt, Greece, Spain, Japan. Even Lithuania, I'm told, used to have a big empire in Eastern Europe.

I do think,though ,that nations who value their native culture tend to be better at surviving crises . Look how Croatia has reappeared in the musical and sporting world. I think this was behind a lot of the 'patriotism' of Spring Rice and his fellows.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Magnificent post, for which many thanks - especially in regards to the likely origination of the idea of self-sacrifice in war providing some kind of solace, which I had never thought about. I don't see it, myself - I think it makes schmucks out of us all, but most unforgiveably close ones.

My pleasure. Im not sure if Pericles didn’t start this whole “noble sacrifice “ idea in his Oration on the dead of the Peloponnesian Wars with his extraordinary and magnificent exhortation to mothers not to mourn their dead sons because dying for Athenian Democracy was nobler than anything they could have achieved in life. Can you imagine a western politician trying that now?

But something happened in the First World War - dying for your Country acquired semi -religious overtones - something that the dead of the Crimea never quite achieved. If you look at The Charge Of The Light Brigade it’s all about valour against the odds : not “sacrifice.”

There are so many reasons why people - let’s face it largely men - fight in wars. Love of country , the pay , actually enjoying fighting and killing (apparently quite rare that thankfully) , legal coercion , being part of a gang of mates , being forced through peer pressure etc : but “ I fancy laying down my life for my country and becoming a hero “ strikes me as quite an implausible one l

[Ein Heldenleben]

Absurd claims on behalf of Britain, which was surely the other country referenced there - "her shining bounds increase" effectively being a justification for the Empire.

I see that as the kingdom of heaven. It’s shining bounds increase “soul by soul” as people die. Obviously a war is very good for business. It’s a slightly pagan Valhalla isn’t it ? Or even the vision of heaven promised to Jihadists. It really doesn’t strike me as very Christian . What did Archbishop Runcie M.C, say that so annoyed Thatcher at the Falklands Thanksgiving service? “war is a sign of failure in human society.” As a WW2 tankie and cleric he knew what he was talking about.
There’s something about politicians sending young men to their deaths and then getting religiose and sentimental afterwards about it which a lot of people ,including many squaddies , find risible.

[LMcD]

Alan Bennett recently said that he could love his friends ,the place where he lived or was born, but he couldn't say he 'loved his Country'. I think he has the fictional Guy Burgess say this in 'An Englishman Abroad', (though it may be a quotation from one of Burgess' letters).

I've only ever lived in England , I've only once been outside the UK , I've met very few foreigners (two Americans, one Russian, only in one brief meeting each) so I don't think I could compare England with anywhere enough to say I love it above others. But surely 'patriotism ' can include, say, wanting the British economy to prosper, by 'buying British' or encouraging British business, as part of a larger wish for Britain to be a respected an secure place for our friends and descendants to live. Or is that something other than patrioritsm'? Maybe the problem is the word and its associations with Xenophobia and empire-building, something not confined to Britain, if you look at the history of China, Egypt, Greece, Spain, Japan. Even Lithuania, I'm told, used to have a big empire in Eastern Europe.

I do think,though ,that nations who value their native culture tend to be better at surviving crises . Look how Croatia has reappeared in the musical and sporting world. I think this was behind a lot of the 'patriotism' of Spring Rice and his fellows.

The belated celebration of his 90th birthday on TV the other night included the scene from 'An Englishman Abroad' in which Alan Bates utters those words.

[Ein Heldenleben]

It's a sad thing that India, SE Asia, China and Japan don't get a look in there: presumably because in many regards of missing present-day criteria pre-dating the West's hegemonisation of art forms and its definition of genres marginalising spiritual practices under "religion". I would certainly place Japan higher than the USA for its contribution to the arts, especially in literature, architecture, horticulture and landscape.

I wouldn’t overthink it - it was just a bit of fun. All I remember is a lot of discussion about what country Jan Van Eyck “belonged “ to.
This was about the same time as the BBC’s Great Britons series where incredibly Churchill “beat “ Shakespeare. If you’d asked Churchill he would have said Shakespeare …

[Serial_Apologist]

There are so many reasons why people - let’s face it largely men - fight in wars. Love of country , the pay , actually enjoying fighting and killing (apparently quite rare that thankfully) , legal coercion , being part of a gang of mates , being forced through peer pressure etc : but “ I fancy laying down my life for my country and becoming a hero “ strikes me as quite an implausible one l

Male image modelling has a lot to do with it, right up to today, in combination with the reality that given a pretext the male in most mammalian species tends innately to the the more aggressive of the sexes; that meeting the child's needs in terms of protection, feeding, affection etc, due to its larger and more slowly developing brain, extends longer than raising "by showing" among the animal kingdom, and in human societies necessarily includes the complex (often contradictory) mediated codes, rites, rules and norms of socialisation. But normalisation based on rationality should also oblige the kinds of critical thinking competitive societies overrrule in the name of efficiency and countering sloth in the direction of questioning the benefits of aggression and war, especially in an age of total wipe-out as we saw displayed in Hiroshima and now the Middle East, unless (of course!) we accept erroneously Freud's pessimistic notion of the death wish?

More contentiously than today's way of thinking about these things, feminism might carry some of the blame. And there I could cite many instances which would probably raise hackles on the forum, but one example of women in the past having a mollifying effect on male belligerence consisted in the fact that it was the mothers, sisters and daughters remaining at home who warned their menfolk of the dangers and heartbreak of sacrifice in war. While it was of course true true that family roles had enforced child and elderly care onto women, that brake was removed once feminists successfully argued that women should have equal rights to join armed forces and fight alongside men.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Male image modelling has a lot to do with it, right up to today, in combination with the reality that given a pretext the male in most mammalian species tends innately to the the more aggressive of the sexes; that meeting the child's needs in terms of protection, feeding, affection etc, due to its larger and more slowly developing brain, extends longer than raising "by showing" among the animal kingdom, and in human societies necessarily includes the complex (often contradictory) mediated codes, rites, rules and norms of socialisation. More contentiously than today's way opf thinking about these things, feminism might carry some of the blame. And there I could cite many instances which would probably raise hackles on the forum, but one example of women in the past having a mollifying effect on male belligerence consisted in the fact that it was the mothers, sisters and daughters remaining at home who warned their menfolk of the dangers and heartbreak of sacrifice in war. While it was of course true true that family roles had enforced child and elderly care onto women, that brake was removed once feminists successfully argued that women should have equal rights to join armed forces with men.

It’s so much more complicated that. The same Greek mothers that Pericles addresses are also said to have stood at the back of a battlefield with raised skirts inviting any cowardly retreaters to climb back into the womb. Suffragettes were amongst the many middle class women who handed out white feathers in WW1 ; and if you’d called the teenage girls who tied themselves to anti aircraft guns at Stalingrad so as to keep firing “feminists “ they would have laughed at you.

[french frank]

Filling in time once at work and in an industry obsessed with lists and prizes we had a discussion about which country overall had the “best “ culture . We restricted ourselves to Western culture as we were pretty much in (even greater ) ignorance of anything else.

we came up with

Literature
1.Britain and Ireland
2.France
3.Russia
4.Germany
5.Italy
6.USA
7.Spain including Latin America (though I was the only one who’d read any Spanish literature)

Based on a knowledge of 'modern' (19th/20th c) literature alone, perhaps, but Spanish Golden Age literature would have ranked close to Shakespeare. I would guess the USA ranks fairly high because US culture impacts hugely on the rest of the western world - and the Asian literatures are absent because in the west we don't know them.