'I vow to thee, my country'

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  • smittims
    Full Member
    • Aug 2022
    • 4371

    'I vow to thee, my country'

    Maybe I should have started this last month, as it may be more relevant to Remembrance Day than Christmas, but I've long wanted to know what people think of this hymn, which I gather has aroused strong feelings, both for and against , at times.

    I've always felt the adaptation of Holst's tune was a mistake. The original version in Jupiter rises an octave each time it's played (two-and-a-half times) , something of a masterstroke, I think. To make it singable by a congregation the wonderful upward leap of a fifth halfway through is turned into a falling fourth, which I always think gloomy and depressing, reminding me of Princess Diana's doleful face as she sang it at her wedding , for all that she said it was a favourite since schooldays . An of course it's given the tune a spurious association with religion, patriotism and Remembrance, far from the idea of 'jollity' where it began.

    I've been trying to discover how the adaptation came about. It seems Holst's publisher Curwen asked him to set the poem, written before the Great War but popular by 1918. Imogen Holst has been quoted as saying that he was tired and overworked and relieved to discover that the tune fitted the words, rather than writing a new one. But I've always suspected Uncle Ralph had a hand in it.

    In 1920, the year the Planets had their public premiere, Vaughan Williams published an essay on Holst's music in which he quotes the tune and says it's a pity it's hidden away in an orchestral work rather than made the centre of a public gathering or celebration. This was much in line with the view of music he expressed to a friend shortly before , deploring concerts and wishing music was used for public occasions. At other times he expressed views suggesting he thought it better for people to make music themselves rather than pay to sit passively and hear it played to them.

    The song, originally published by Curwen as a separate unison song , was harmonised by Holst and incorporated in the influential hymn book Songs of Praise , which Vaughan Willams edited.

    I was interested to see that the words, so revered by many , have been criticised as 'heretical' and even 'obscene' for their patriotic views, linking religion to patriotism. But maybe there's a bit of anachronism here.The Poet, who I think died in 1918, had been Ambassador in Washington and played a part in getting the USA to join in the Great War. So maybe he was simply a man of his time. In an age when the question is often asked 'what does it mean to be British?' (usually, I think. a covert plea for 'inclusivity') it may be difficult to look back objectively to the deas expressed in the words.

  • LMcD
    Full Member
    • Sep 2017
    • 8668

    #2
    Originally posted by smittims View Post
    Maybe I should have started this last month, as it may be more relevant to Remembrance Day than Christmas, but I've long wanted to know what people think of this hymn, which I gather has aroused strong feelings, both for and against , at times.

    I've always felt the adaptation of Holst's tune was a mistake. The original version in Jupiter rises an octave each time it's played (two-and-a-half times) , something of a masterstroke, I think. To make it singable by a congregation the wonderful upward leap of a fifth halfway through is turned into a falling fourth, which I always think gloomy and depressing, reminding me of Princess Diana's doleful face as she sang it at her wedding , for all that she said it was a favourite since schooldays . An of course it's given the tune a spurious association with religion, patriotism and Remembrance, far from the idea of 'jollity' where it began.

    I've been trying to discover how the adaptation came about. It seems Holst's publisher Curwen asked him to set the poem, written before the Great War but popular by 1918. Imogen Holst has been quoted as saying that he was tired and overworked and relieved to discover that the tune fitted the words, rather than writing a new one. But I've always suspected Uncle Ralph had a hand in it.

    In 1920, the year the Planets had their public premiere, Vaughan Williams published an essay on Holst's music in which he quotes the tune and says it's a pity it's hidden away in an orchestral work rather than made the centre of a public gathering or celebration. This was much in line with the view of music he expressed to a friend shortly before , deploring concerts and wishing music was used for public occasions. At other times he expressed views suggesting he thought it better for people to make music themselves rather than pay to sit passively and hear it played to them.

    The song, originally published by Curwen as a separate unison song , was harmonised by Holst and incorporated in the influential hymn book Songs of Praise , which Vaughan Willams edited.

    I was interested to see that the words, so revered by many , have been criticised as 'heretical' and even 'obscene' for their patriotic views, linking religion to patriotism. But maybe there's a bit of anachronism here.The Poet, who I think died in 1918, had been Ambassador in Washington and played a part in getting the USA to join in the Great War. So maybe he was simply a man of his time. In an age when the question is often asked 'what does it mean to be British?' (usually, I think. a covert plea for 'inclusivity') it may be difficult to look back objectively to the deas expressed in the words.
    Also hijacked as a theme with new words - 'World in Union' - for the Rugby World Cup.
    Has anybody ever found the words of 'Land Of Hope And Glory' heretical or obscene, I wonder?

    Comment

    • cloughie
      Full Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 22202

      #3
      ‘Vow’ fine with me - I was brought up with it and Holst was probably OK with it! ‘World in Union’, however is dreadful and hijacked for Rugby and will no doubt will be murdered by many a crowd forever!

      Comment

      • Pulcinella
        Host
        • Feb 2014
        • 11092

        #4
        Nothing more about the history/development/use (whatever) of the tune here, sadly:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaxted_(tune)

        Comment

        • smittims
          Full Member
          • Aug 2022
          • 4371

          #5
          Thanks.

          Since writing the opening post I've discovered that Holst wrote a1920 note on the Planets in which he draws a distinction between two kinds if 'jollity', the second (represented by the famous tune) being public , or community rejoicing, an idea again in line with Holst's and Vaughan Williams' views on the use of music in the community.

          So the idea of using it as a hymn would not have been so strange to him when VW or Curwen suggested it.

          Comment

          • MickyD
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 4824

            #6
            It is a jolly good tune, though, for all that.

            Comment

            • Ein Heldenleben
              Full Member
              • Apr 2014
              • 6944

              #7
              Originally posted by cloughie View Post
              ‘Vow’ fine with me - I was brought up with it and Holst was probably OK with it! ‘World in Union’, however is dreadful and hijacked for Rugby and will no doubt will be murdered by many a crowd forever!
              Yes and what made it particularly irritating is that it was sung by Kiri Te Kanawa - one of the very greatest of post war sopranos. A voice made for Mozart and Strauss wasted on this drivel. It’s like getting Picasso to paint your house.
              I have never heard a Rugby crowd sing it.

              Comment

              • Serial_Apologist
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 37836

                #8
                Originally posted by MickyD View Post
                It is a jolly good tune, though, for all that.
                So is the tune to "The Internationale" - the words of which are not much better as translated into the existing tune, but at least they can't be accused of/mistaken for (choose according to political disposition) having nationalist or patriotic associations! From what I take from listening to Vaughan Williams's 1955 speech on Parry, in which iirc (I would have to check) he spoke not of the supremacy of national cultures over global perspectives but of the inevitably of one's culture being rooted in locale, emphasising the importance of engagement therein - more "think globally, act locally" than charity begins at home. Holst's cultural interests grew wider than VW's after their lifelong mutual friendship's initiation while at college in the 1890s, and it reflected in both his musical idiom and the range of his political concerns and educational duties including Morley College. Couched as it is in terms of the musical conventions of its time, and something of a sore thumb in relation to the rest of Jupiter's idiom, which is closer to that of "Petruschka" (possibly picked up from the elated ending to the first movement of VW's "London" Symphony) it may seem a shame that Holst was encouraged (?) into setting that particular text when he did, but for today it is a much greater shame that it continues to be sung when the far greater universality conveyed metaphorically in "Jerusalem" will better stand the test of time.

                Comment

                • oddoneout
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2015
                  • 9298

                  #9
                  I have mixed feelings about it, as it was very much part of Grammar School ritual(Founder's Day in particular) and it was certainly a rousing sing, with 700 plus voices and 2 grand pianos in a large acoustically good hall. However even then I was doubtful about the sentiments being expressed, although I think they were the reason it was chosen in the first place - service and the greater good etc being very much the underlying ethos of the place. I rather doubt that proximity to Holst's birthplace had much to do with it, as he didn't seem to be made much of during most of the time I lived in Cheltenham, and I'm not sure it would have been that much different in earlier times, when the school was built.
                  It has very occasionally been part of a choir concert but I wouldn't choose to sing it, although I do enjoy the tune in its proper place. As I can't see any alternative form of words being up to the standard of the music(judging by modern hymns, and the fiddling with older texts to make them more acceptable) perhaps it should be allowed to quietly die.

                  Comment

                  • Serial_Apologist
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 37836

                    #10
                    Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                    I have mixed feelings about it, as it was very much part of Grammar School ritual(Founder's Day in particular) and it was certainly a rousing sing, with 700 plus voices and 2 grand pianos in a large acoustically good hall. However even then I was doubtful about the sentiments being expressed, although I think they were the reason it was chosen in the first place - service and the greater good etc being very much the underlying ethos of the place. I rather doubt that proximity to Holst's birthplace had much to do with it, as he didn't seem to be made much of during most of the time I lived in Cheltenham, and I'm not sure it would have been that much different in earlier times, when the school was built.
                    It has very occasionally been part of a choir concert but I wouldn't choose to sing it, although I do enjoy the tune in its proper place. As I can't see any alternative form of words being up to the standard of the music(judging by modern hymns, and the fiddling with older texts to make them more acceptable) perhaps it should be allowed to quietly die.
                    Probably not. Both Holst's and Vaughan Williams's political radicalism would in part have originated in their university circles, but also from that socially-committed side of Christianity that emerged in late Victorian circles, in part reacting to the detrimental social and environmental by-products of industrialisation. (I've referred elsewhere to the phenomenon of established religions with left and right tendencies - the former when closest to founding principles, the latter when cosying up to establishments). RVW and Holst can be seen as associated with the Arts & Crafts movement: Holst, I believe, a member of the nascent Labour Party, and of its Hammersmith branch, in which William Morris had previously also been a member. In many respects their radicalism, like that of Morris et al, was selective, sentimental, and backward-looking to pre-industrial times; and I've sometimes wondered if Holst would have felt sympathetic towards the hippies, with their interest in oriental spiritual philosophies, had he lived to a good age!

                    Comment

                    • LMcD
                      Full Member
                      • Sep 2017
                      • 8668

                      #11
                      Originally posted by MickyD View Post
                      It is a jolly good tune, though, for all that.
                      Very clever!

                      Comment

                      • french frank
                        Administrator/Moderator
                        • Feb 2007
                        • 30493

                        #12
                        Originally posted by MickyD View Post
                        It is a jolly good tune, though, for all that.
                        By Jove, it is!
                        It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                        Comment

                        • Pulcinella
                          Host
                          • Feb 2014
                          • 11092

                          #13
                          Originally posted by french frank View Post

                          By Jove, it is!

                          Comment

                          • french frank
                            Administrator/Moderator
                            • Feb 2007
                            • 30493

                            #14
                            I also used to sing this at school - usually at the end-of-term service. I don't think I could sing the words now, they are so much of another age, born of different circumstances.

                            Living in 2024, I find the notion of 'patriotism' something I need to have explained to me. What does it entail?
                            It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                            Comment

                            • cloughie
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 22202

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post

                              Yes and what made it particularly irritating is that it was sung by Kiri Te Kanawa - one of the very greatest of post war sopranos. A voice made for Mozart and Strauss wasted on this drivel. It’s like getting Picasso to paint your house.
                              I have never heard a Rugby crowd sing it.
                              Or as my Father would have said - why gold-plate a dustbin!

                              Well there’s taste showing through as it was stolen for their sport!

                              Last edited by cloughie; 20-12-24, 08:32.

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