The Somewhat Delayed Song Thread

[Lat-Literal]

It looks an interesting set but I often think that although classical composers did their bit in collecting folk songs I prefer the versions by Fairport Convention, Pentangle and others on the folk scene of the last 50 plus years.

That's a big topic and an interesting one. I come in from the folk angle and even the folk rock angle but I admire Fairport rather than love them although I love Denny as a vocalist. My initial reference points in time were the early 1970s and what stylistically were the very different mid 1980s with some glimpses of the 1960s, mainly from memory. It took me quite a while to tune into an overtly folk vocal style which can seem very far-fetched unless you meet it on its own terms. Which I did, fully, as the years passed by. I think that is why I am very persuaded by classical representations of folk music now. It was there for me in the RVW etc anyway but if you do cross the folk bridge in vocal terms - eg "I love the Watersons" - then classical approaches vocally can be appreciated for what they are and do. Comparatively they are less of a barrier. The same goes for an art song setting.

[rauschwerk]

It looks an interesting set but I often think that although classical composers did their bit in collecting folk songs I prefer the versions by Fairport Convention, Pentangle and others on the folk scene of the last 50 plus years.

Folk songs? There are virtually none in that anthology.

[cloughie]

Folk songs? There are virtually none in that anthology.

I did not say that they were all or mostly folk songs - There is a significant number there - I think the thread title is broad enough for me to make my observation. For what it's worth I also feel that songs written as songs, rather than setting poems to music work better. Poems are often stretched unnaturally to fit music.
...my comments also did not say I did not like the look of the anthology - as I said it looks interesting!

[gurnemanz]

For some contemporary British songwriting NMC Songbook is well worth investigating

[rauschwerk]

I did not say that they were all or mostly folk songs...

Indeed you did not!

There is a significant number there

Two or three? Not more, I think.

I think the thread title is broad enough for me to make my observation.

Absolutely.

...my comments also did not say I did not like the look of the anthology

No they didn't, but I never meant to imply that they did.

[rauschwerk]

For what it's worth I also feel that songs written as songs, rather than setting poems to music work better. Poems are often stretched unnaturally to fit music.

I don't care to read verse, or to hear it read. I had much rather hear a sensitive musical setting, melismas and all.

[gradus]

Re Lat-Lit's comment upthread about the most sophisticated western pop song of all time, how about this Rodgers and Hart offering, again from Carmen McRae:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL-jbUuPnPs&feature=related

Enjoyable thread by the way.

[Lat-Literal]

I don't care to read verse, or to hear it read. I had much rather hear a sensitive musical setting, melismas and all.

It might be interesting to have a thread sometime along the lines of "when is a melisma a melisma?". The term has positive connotations in classical music and very negative ones in contemporary popular music where since the late 1980s it has generally denoted ludicrous theatrics that are not musical in the slightest while being paraded as really wonderful!

Re Lat-Lit's comment upthread about the most sophisticated western pop song of all time, how about this Rodgers and Hart offering, again from Carmen McRae:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL-jbUuPnPs&feature=related

Enjoyable thread by the way.

Thank you for that enjoyable link featuring the great Carmen McRae. No need for histrionics. The talent was such that it could be presented in an unassuming, natural, way!

Wikipedia: Melisma - Prevalence in Popular Music : Mid 1980s to late 2000s: "The use of melisma is a common feature of artists such as Stevie Wonder [Edit: Really???], Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey, Beyoncé Knowles, Christina Aguilera, Jennifer Hudson, Nelly Furtado and Jessie J among others......while use of melismatic vocals was slowly growing in the 1980s - songs such as Whitney Houston's early music featured the style - the trend in R and B singers is considered to have been popularized by Mariah Carey's song "Vision of Love" which was released and topped the charts in 1990..............other artists may have used it before Houston, but it was her rendition of Dolly Parton's love song "I Will Always Love You" that pushed the technique into the mainstream in the 90s". Technique. Erm, right. So "melisma" put an end to the gospel influenced range of soul voices then. Damn!

[cloughie]

It might be interesting to have a thread sometime along the lines of "when is a melisma a melisma?". The term has positive connotations in classical music and very negative ones in contemporary popular music where since the late 1980s it has generally denoted ludicrous theatrics that are not musical in the slightest while being paraded as really wonderful!


Thank you for that enjoyable link featuring the great Carmen McRae. No need for histrionics. The talent was such that it could be presented in an unassuming, natural, way!

Wikipedia: Melisma - Prevalence in Popular Music : Mid 1980s to late 2000s: "The use of melisma is a common feature of artists such as Stevie Wonder [Edit: Really???], Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey, Beyoncé Knowles, Christina Aguilera, Jennifer Hudson, Nelly Furtado and Jessie J among others......while use of melismatic vocals was slowly growing in the 1980s - songs such as Whitney Houston's early music featured the style - the trend in R and B singers is considered to have been popularized by Mariah Carey's song "Vision of Love" which was released and topped the charts in 1990..............other artists may have used it before Houston, but it was her rendition of Dolly Parton's love song "I Will Always Love You" that pushed the technique into the mainstream in the 90s". Technique. Erm, right. So "melisma" put an end to the gospel influenced range of soul voices then. Damn!

Looks like melisma is a medical condition to be avoided...

Dolly Parton's original was a heartfelt well sung song - Whitney murdered it as did Mariah 'Without you'.
Carmen McRae's is one of a number of very good versions of 'My Funny Valentine' - I recently found this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YhRmYafaC4

[Lat-Literal]

Looks like melisma is a medical condition to be avoided...

Dolly Parton's original was a heartfelt well sung song - Whitney murdered it as did Mariah 'Without you'.
Carmen McRae's is one of a number of very good versions of 'My Funny Valentine' - I recently found this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YhRmYafaC4

Yes indeed to all of your post.

Here is one mystery I often return to in my mind without necessarily finding absolute answers. How was it just a decade and a bit between two women who were known for their verbal "gymnastics" - and who to use a rather sexist sounding term could justifiably be described as "songbirds" - and a larger group who were applauded much more for their supposed abilities but frankly often sounded like they were under enormous strain? Houston, ironically, was not without a gospel background and, of course, we are aware of the personal problems that sadly she experienced. But those came later and it was essentially a cultural difference. To some extent it was generational. There was a loss of musicality in the zeitgeist across the board. One could almost believe that there is something in the stars that pre-determines there will be periods of musical sensibility before the tide turns and society's achievements are principally in other areas like technology and science. Then when the moon is ready - 30 or 40 years on - we have another wave of music people.

In content terms, the remarkable Riperton and the impressive enough Williams will not be to everyone's taste. It's all very soft focus but if this was melisma in the popular field there is no doubt it was put into effect as it should be done. Maybe it is no coincidence that the able Charles Stepney was closely involved with both? There is no way on earth I can bring myself to post an example of what in the 1980s and 1990s was in sharp contrast to it but I am still very keen to receive information about Stepney's classical symphony:

1975 - Minnie Riperton - Loving You - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE0pwJ5PMDg

1976 - Deniece Williams - Free (ST) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhbwoE1E1AA

[cloughie]

Yes indeed to all of your post.

Here is one mystery I often return to in my mind without necessarily finding absolute answers. How was it just a decade and a bit between two women who were known for their verbal "gymnastics" - and who to use a rather sexist sounding term could justifiably be described as "songbirds" - and a larger group who were applauded much more for their supposed abilities but frankly often sounded like they were under enormous strain. Houston, ironically, was not without a gospel background and, of course, we are aware of the personal problems that sadly she experienced. But those came later and it was essentially a cultural difference. To some extent it was generational. There was a loss of musicality in the zeigeist across the board. One could almost believe that there is something in the stars that pre-determines there will be periods of musical sensibility before the tide turns and society's achievements are principally in other areas like technology and science. Then when the moon is ready - 30 or 40 years on - we have another wave of music people.

In content terms, the remarkable Riperton and the impressive enough Williams will not be to everyone's taste. It's all very soft focus but if this was melisma in the popular field there is no doubt it was put into effect as it should be done. Maybe it is no coincidence that the able Charles Stepney was closely involved with both? There is no way on earth I can bring myself to post an example of what in the 1980s and 1990s was in sharp contrast to it but I am still very keen to receive information about Stepney's classical symphony:

1975 - Minnie Riperton - Loving You - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE0pwJ5PMDg

1976 - Deniece Williams - Free (ST) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhbwoE1E1AA

Another example of some exemplary high pitched stuff. Cheryl Bentyne's contribution to this ManTran track

http://youtu.be/eqE3peddhek

[Lat-Literal]

Another example of some exemplary high pitched stuff. Cheryl Bentyne's contribution to this ManTran track
http://youtu.be/eqE3peddhek

You know, cloughie, a hell of a lot of it is obvious in the performance. Those who have it either understate the performance so that the performance is in the vocal ability itself or because of the vocal ability they have sufficient resources to perform in the theatrical sense. Manhattan Transfer genuinely gave a performance because they had enough natural ability to do so. Ella could bring it up and take it down. Where the vocal ability is lacking, it is always revealed in posturing that is presented as performance. On Bentyne, I believe she came later or am I wrong? It's Masse who I tend to recall and there was a second woman in the group who may or may not have been Bentyne. Maybe Bentyne took the lead after Masse? One thing I do know is that they did a version of "It's Not The Spotlight" which is pertinent here although it is the version by rich kid Mike Bloomfield that I like most!

Electric Flag feat Mike Bloomfield - It's Not the Spotlight - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVs-TC6b-9g

I am hoping to do a bit of rock on this thread next. It's popular with a lot of forum contributors. I am very picky. Have bizarre favourites that I couldn't justify in any rational way which is probably a good thing as there will be fewer words from me. It will be a bridge in respect of the highly regarded who started from that angle or at least always had it as a significant parallel while probably finding a lot of stuff on this thread difficult to stomach. Before doing so, I am going to pick out a song which as with "I Only Have Eyes For You" is one with a very long history and just has something about it that I find endlessly fascinating. This is the Manhattan Transfer version but the number of roads from it are numerous :

Manhattan Transfer - Poinciana - The Song of the Tree - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F4mfIFgFWA

(Shame the video people couldn't spell it correctly!)

[cloughie]

You know, cloughie, a hell of a lot of it is obvious in the performance. Those who have it either understate the performance so that the performance is in the vocal ability itself or because of the vocal ability they have sufficient resources to perform in the theatrical sense. Manhattan Transfer genuinely gave a performance because they had enough natural ability to do so. Ella could bring it up and take it down. Where the vocal ability is lacking, it is always revealed in posturing that is presented as performance. On Bentyne, I believe she came later or am I wrong? It's Aitken who I tend to recall and there was a second woman in the group who may or may not have been Bentyne. Maybe Bentyne took the lead after Aitken? One thing I do know is that they did a version of "It's Not The Spotlight" which is pertinent here although it is the version by rich kid Mike Bloomfield that I like most!

Electric Flag featuring Mike Bloomfield - It's Not the Spotlight - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVs-TC6b-9g

Cheryl Bentyne replaced Laurel Masse, badly injured in a car accident - the other ManTran female singer being Janis Siegel. In my opinion Laurel was very good but Cheryl has the edge vocally. Founder member Tim Hauser died last October.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manhattan_Transfer#Founding

[Lat-Literal]

Cheryl Bentyne replaced Laurel Masse, badly injured in a car accident - the other ManTran female singer being Janis Siegel. In my opinion Laurel was very good but Cheryl has the edge vocally. Founder member Tim Hauser died last October.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ma...nsfer#Founding

Ah, yes, thanks for that information. Actually, while we are here, I am very interested in Weather Report covers. Do you know how "Birdland" was put together? It sounds like their vocals and a bit of instrumentation were just added on the top of it but perhaps the WR people came in for it? It did get a lot of radio airplay around the time of "Heavy Weather"!

Manhattan Transfer - Birdland - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jmUdpcq07k

[Lat-Literal]

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Heavy Rock

In a very abrupt gear change - and to some extent because it is an abrupt gear change - this is a follow up on my "promise" at trying my hand at heavy rock. It is likely to be short and sweet as it isn't a chosen field. There is also an instinct which suggests that it is more out-of-step with the forum than any Manhattan Transfer but I fully accept that instinct might be wrong. What it will be is a doffing of the cap to Mr Oven and others. I don't know if it will chime to any degree. My first memory of heavy rock is of a week in 1970 when Deep Purple and Black Sabbath both had Top 5 singles. It seems incredible now that it could have happened but it did. In an era when folk and country and reggae and soul music were all in the commercial lists, those two records were to a seven year old additional colours in the aural paintbox. There were no historical or modern cultural references to which older folk had informed access so we are talking here simply about sound. The first wave does have some nostalgic appeal in a way that the second just doesn't have.

In the late 1970s, when fellow teenagers were raving about Rainbow, Whitesnake, Schenker and even Kiss, I felt that there were more cutting edge areas in which to dwell plus I carried a continuation of some of the preferred softer earlier musical themes. However, in 1982 university brought to me friends with very eclectic tastes and there were some "rock heads" among them with albums going back to the early 1970s. It was a climate in which we borrowed each others' records to learn more and to see what we were able to enjoy on some level. People picked out things that they thought could be met by the doubtful - eg me - given known main tastes. And then later on at work, I met some Welsh guy. He wasn't a friend but he was nice enough. He was a big fan of Man who to be frank were not a name I knew but I did know a Welsh band from the early 1970s called Budgie.

The latter had produced a record which one of the student mates had handed to me. Somehow in the combination of events, I decided wholly irrationally that heavy rock from Wales was the best stuff when it came to heavy rock. I think I needed some sort of justification for listening to any of it at all. It helped that Welsh rock could be melodic or at least occasionally it juxtaposed melody with thrash. I suppose it was all on my fringes and Wales is not exactly central to anywhere other than Wales so there was a weird sort of sense there too. Oh, plus Wales has not produced the volume of organic folk music that the other home countries have done and I don't know. There is just something organic sounding about Welsh rock as if it somehow compensates for that difference and it springs from the mines, the mountains and the muse. I will do these and then do Holland etc next.

Budgie -

Breadfan -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54H3EUAzpVg

You Know I'll Always Love You -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwBCrHh6BCI

Man -

Bananas -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c_3Licm2KI

Grasshopper -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWiC1XgZX1Q