The Somewhat Delayed Song Thread

[johncorrigan]

For me, and my daughter, this is two and a half minutes of simple delight - 'Wallet' courtesy of the great Regina Spektor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McpnKkfPULE

[Padraig]

I found this bit of sean nós singing which I enjoyed. It's a new voice to me and a sweet one - Saileog Ní Cheannabhain (O'Canavan) live and unaccompanied.
There is a short epilogue where you can sing - please do; it's easy!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7FvokKTF-o

[Lat-Literal]

Alright. Let's get this done. Springsteen isn't Dylan Mark II but equally the appearance of bombast is surface deep. The poet has been clearly revealed in detailed programmes about him that feature pictures of his writing. An admittedly odd parallel might be Bob Monkhouse whose meticulous book keeping in terms of jokes and abilities with cartoon, once seen, showed us a very different person from the seemingly glib game show host. As for Bruce "in essence", the blue collar workers' hero is the right sort of tag and all the more significant because of his sensitivity and erudition. Specifically on songs, the commercially successful "Born in the USA" was a dud. Slow burner "Born To Run" definitely wasn't!

There is considerable romance in the first four albums from 1973 to 1978. Arguably that was unprecedented in its genre although albums three and four are on the cusp of selling out. His attempts at getting back to musical roots are generally lauded by critics, wrongly. "The River" is a mish-mash although it has one stand out track, "Nebraska" is morose and "Tom Joad" is even worse. By far and away the best effort in that regard was "We Shall Overcome: The Seeger Sessions" which arrived much later and was strictly "covers".

At his best, Springsteen is the second best recording artist of all time on "the youthful male perspective" and even "the male perspective" because he dares to venture into vulnerable areas with his sleeves rolled up as an artisan and minimal cloying. We can talk about who comes first in that respect at another time. But all the way through, there has been an absolute contrast between the "huge stadium" performance in which a bigging up is obviously very impressive and the stronger cinematic and/or contemplative lyricism.

The first two albums - 1973 - are both flawed but they rate among his best along with "Darkness on the Edge of Town" which was the fourth in 1978, the often underestimated 1987 release "Tunnel of Love" and "The Rising" in 2002 which was both America's best musical testament to 9/11 and his own resurgence. The presenter Roger Scott almost single handedly promoted the street-romantic "Born To Run" in the early-mid 1970s when commercial success was on hold. He would have been 71 last week but sadly died 26 years ago. I have seen Alan Partidge analogies by those who didn't know and I can, with hindsight, see how they are thinking. But Scott was the presenter in the "anglo"-transatlantic style par excellence and will forever be a yardstick for popular music radio presentation as well as being remembered by many as a genuine music enthusiast who is very much missed.

Actually, this effort is as much a tribute to Roger as Bruce:

Growin' Up - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3Cs-bZ2YX0
The Angel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBVO6p797Yk
Rosalita - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC4bf67s5lQ
57th Street - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioQcvijom28

Born To Run - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3t9SfrfDZM
Independence Day - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnAJlJHXn_M
Walk Like A Man - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r4KjCuy94g
You're Missing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyAF0UQ4cmk

No clip of RS does him justice as he was a bit part on R1 while central to Capital earlier. Peaked at 33. This is the closest. I used to think it was in the voice but it is more in the timing which is rhythmically musical. Allowance to be made for the context - trite - but what comes across is a measured restraint in the enthusiasm - it is studiously "hey, here we are all together in life and I will marginally uplift" - with enough personality but not personality screaming out. A consummate professional, solid, who did have a great voice too. Bob Harris said something along the lines that he was way above anyone else in that area of radio. Bob Stewart, Ray Moore and many more obvious choices but Scott was the one!

http://www.radiorewind.co.uk/sounds/roger_scott_sunday_1.mp3

[johncorrigan]

Growin' Up - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3Cs-bZ2YX0

I love the acoustic version, Lat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fw-S0_dq2w

[johncorrigan]

I found this bit of sean nós singing which I enjoyed. It's a new voice to me and a sweet one - Saileog Ní Cheannabhain (O'Canavan) live and unaccompanied.
There is a short epilogue where you can sing - please do; it's easy!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7FvokKTF-o

Loved that comment left on the youtube page by a viewer, Padraig - 'Sure the birds would faint with envy!' Right beautiful voice.

[EdgeleyRob]

Have we had Bob Marley yet ?

What's your favourite ?

[Lat-Literal]

I love the acoustic version, Lat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fw-S0_dq2w

Well, isn't that just magnificent. Thanks JC. I am a bigger fan of Bruce than I let on as there is just a feeling it will too easily be categorised as a frantic lighter waving in away-from-the-office metal head denim, not that I have a problem with that sort of perspective. Bless 'em. Love the picture of Little Steven. Also, Clarence Clemons the saxophonist is in my Band A of all time or if not certainly Band B. Incidentally, the very notion that the 1980s were rubbish musically is absolute nonsense although there would be agreement from me on production, broadly. Recall this song on a jukebox in Kentish Town ahead of one of the 13 Pogues gigs and thinking "it should be top of the pops". Did nothing commercially!

Little Steven - Bitter Fruit - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjQhu6gfL7M

Have we had Bob Marley yet ?

What's your favourite ?

Absolutely - and really you don't need to encourage me!

A true great and as you have asked, the simplicity and joy of "Three Little Birds", the lilt of all lilts "Jamming", your "Waiting in Vain" and "Satisfy My Soul" for their sweetness in the best sense of that word. There's also political Marley and early, early, Marley but this is the one I grew into and it may be my ultimate. Again, for its simplicity/atmospherics:

Bob Marley - Turn Your Lights Down Low - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2FT5Ya2xYM (a "nothing" woman with a "nothing" man which is so, so huge it transcends!)

Have to do this one though - Three Little Birds - the best adult nursery rhyme of all time - almost makes life feel safe! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGYAAsHT4QE

[teamsaint]

I have a real soft spot for this Springsteen song, in this performance.

I obviously have the Boss all wrong, Lat, I think Born in the USA and Nebraska are both excellent albums. but then I'm not a proper Springsteen fan......

[cloughie]

A very interesting contribution to the thread. Carole King probably goes down in popular music history for covers of her own hit songs for other artists. 'Will you love me tomorrow' and 'Natural Woman' on Tapestry and the whole of her Pearls album show this - her only hit prior to Tapestry was 'It might as well rain until September'. I have a Little Eva album from around 'The Locomition' time which had it been the thing at the time could just as easily have been done by Carole, except at the time she was conducting the orchestra. As to Mr Sedaka - like many others he had a lean period in his career although during that time he wrote some songs for The Monkees - remember them - thought they could be America's answer to the Beatles Neil also wrote Amarillo. Link back to WMCs in the North - don't be too surprised about NS appearing there as many top Britsh and American acts appeared there in the late 60s. Places like the bigger WMCs and Batley Variety Club paid big money back then. Ironical link with Amarillo, Peter Kay - Phoenix Nights was very much a parody of the Northern WMC! The Sedaka 10cc link had missed my radar. Did it come about through his northern trips and using Strawberry Studios? Was there a link between 'Amarillo' and 'Rochdale to Ocho Rios'? You make fleeting references to Randy Newman, Jimmy Webb, James Taylor (perhaps you should not have omitted the Carly Simon connection there), Springsteen, Billy Joel, Harry Nilsson. Each of these require a chapter. Q. Has the demise of the Brill Building approach to songwriting deprived the industry of a supply of songs and are arrangements a patch on what they were? Does the insistence of bands and singer/songwriters today dilute the quality of the songs - there appears to be a lot of 'padding' tracks on albums - but then there were often poor self-penned B sides, among the odd gem back in the sixties.

[Lat-Literal]

A very interesting contribution to the thread. Carole King probably goes down in popular music history for covers of her own hit songs for other artists. 'Will you love me tomorrow' and 'Natural Woman' on Tapestry and the whole of her Pearls album show this - her only hit prior to Tapestry was 'It might as well rain until September'. I have a Little Eva album from around 'The Locomition' time which had it been the thing at the time could just as easily have been done by Carole, except at the time she was conducting the orchestra. As to Mr Sedaka - like many others he had a lean period in his career although during that time he wrote some songs for The Monkees - remember them - thought they could be America's answer to the Beatles Neil also wrote Amarillo. Link back to WMCs in the North - don't be too surprised about NS appearing there as many top Britsh and American acts appeared there in the late 60s. Places like the bigger WMCs and Batley Variety Club paid big money back then. Ironical link with Amarillo, Peter Kay - Phoenix Nights was very much a parody of the Northern WMC! The Sedaka 10cc link had missed my radar. Did it come about through his northern trips and using Strawberry Studios? Was there a link between 'Amarillo' and 'Rochdale to Ocho Rios'? You make fleeting references to Randy Newman, Jimmy Webb, James Taylor (perhaps you should not have omitted the Carly Simon connection there), Springsteen, Billy Joel, Harry Nilsson. Each of these require a chapter. Q. Has the demise of the Brill Building approach to songwriting deprived the industry of a supply of songs and are arrangements a patch on what they were? Does the insistence of bands and singer/songwriters today dilute the quality of the songs - there appears to be a lot of 'padding' tracks on albums - but then there were often poor self-penned B sides, among the odd gem back in the sixties.

Thank you cloughie for a very interesting post. I didn't know about Carole King's role in the production of Little Eva's songs. Agree that a significant part of King's success was in writing songs for other people. That was especially true prior to "Tapestry" in 1971 although as you say songs on that album were covered too. With reference to the 1950s-1960s, Gerry Goffin must be mentioned for as you will know King and Goffin were a songwriting partnership. Also, I see parallels between "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow" and Sedaka's "Breaking Up Is Hard To Do". Each was substantially re-worked in the 1970s so each "bridges back" across the "missing years" to the earlier period when they were written.

There is something to be said for the formal approaches to songwriting at Brill and associated buildings. Songwriting there was a discipline. The writers were often expected to be there at 9am and to leave at 5pm or something along those lines. It was very much a job in that sense. Of course, the counter-argument is that artistry needs to be spontaneous if it is to have any lifeblood. Some, for example, would say that Tamla Motown was too much of a "factory". However, the evidence is the output. An extraordinary number of very good songs emanated from Brill. They were often heartfelt as well as successful. And whatever one thinks of Tamla - too pop? too appealing to white audiences? too draconian in its management? - there is so much spirit and sophistication in those records. I think where there is ability a systemic approach tends to be helpful. That was even recognised at Stax which is interesting as a compare and contrast with Tamla. For all of its roots driven authenticity, it too was "a system" even if in tone it seemed haphazard. Tony Wilson in Manchester was one individual who understood the benefits of "system", however slack, to the extent that in the 1980s the name he chose for his label was "Factory Records". As for "Real World Records", had it not been for a coordinated approach we would never have heard a wide range of international artists who were as "authentic" as any can be.

Not all of these comments apply specifically to songwriting but all are there or thereabouts. Ultimately, it does come down to ability. Surely one of the key words in your post is "orchestra" as just in that glimpse you provided of Carole being "at the helm" what is clear is that there was nothing half baked about her musicianship. Sedaka, of course, was trained at Juilliard, can easily perform concertos with nonchalance and has done so live on many occasions. Carole's voice on "Tapestry" is so distinctive and indeed "right" that one could be forgiven for thinking that she hadn't principally been a songwriter for other people. Neil has been sufficiently "agile" to have had his songs recorded by a wide range of others from comparatively unknown black artists in the 1950s through to the world and his wife recording "Solitaire". Talking of "Solitaire", that was apparently where "10CC" became involved with him. Until this morning, I hadn't realised the collaboration commenced as early as 1972 when they were hardly any sort of band. Wikipedia says this about it:

"Sedaka opted to record at Strawberry after meeting Gouldman in New York and discovering his association with Stewart, Godley and Creme. The trio had recorded the single "Umbopo", which Sedaka liked, under the band name of Doctor Father. His work with the four British musicians proved to be a pivotal influence on their collective decision to forge a career as a band. Gouldman recalled: "It was Neil Sedaka's success that did it, I think. We'd just been accepting any job we were offered and were getting really frustrated. We knew that we were worth more than that, but it needed something to prod us into facing that. We were a bit choked to think that we'd done the whole of Neil's first album with him just for flat session fees when we could have been recording our own material".

On "Is This the Way to Amarillo?", it was originally "Is This the Way to Pensacola?" but in order to include the word "pillow" there had to be a town shift from Florida to Texas!

Newman, Webb, Taylor, Carly Simon, Joel, Nilsson........I could pick out some very fine songs by all of them and am a big fan of the first three in particular. I doubt that I could write about most of them because my thoughts on music often arise in areas of challenging my own and others' preconceptions. Most on that list are not complicated in that way. But - "Springsteen isn't essentially about brute force and Sedaka isn't simply a light trilling in ludicrous flares". These are the interesting stories - and fundamental truths - about the professional journeys of individuals who are too often placed in stereotypical boxes. Quite where and why everything went downhill in terms of songwriting is a very big topic. Maybe we should try to discuss it. It wasn't all about what was "in the stars". My inclination is to think that much of the music of that era to some extent reflected slightly earlier developments in cinema and the arrival of television. Nowadays, everything is perhaps just too much of an industry with limited resource and one that is as invisible as its product.

Breaking Up Slow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWFgqnisSsk

Anyhow, Billy Joel.......if Springsteen is at his best when leaning towards sensitivity, Joel may just achieve more when he heads towards the very austere and finds a bit of grit!

Goodnight Saigon - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjzjhl-QztE

[Lat-Literal]

I have a real soft spot for this Springsteen song, in this performance.

I obviously have the Boss all wrong, Lat, I think Born in the USA and Nebraska are both excellent albums. but then I'm not a proper Springsteen fan......

There's no wrongs and rights. It is all factual opinion.

Had never heard that link before. Many thanks for it!!

[Lat-Literal]

A swift gear change and definitely my last on this thread today. Television, Marquee Moon, 1977. In one take it subverted the axe guitar solo which was increasingly monstrous and turned it into a dexterous, atmospheric, rubber band. It is also strangely orchestral if anyone wants to give it that ear. Urban and pastoral, 'a ringing beacon in a mixolydian mode':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlbunmCbTBA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquee_Moon

[cloughie]

"Sedaka opted to record at Strawberry after meeting Gouldman in New York and discovering his association with Stewart, Godley and Creme. The trio had recorded the single "Umbopo", which Sedaka liked, under the band name of Doctor Father. His work with the four British musicians proved to be a pivotal influence on their collective decision to forge a career as a band. Gouldman recalled: "It was Neil Sedaka's success that did it, I think. We'd just been accepting any job we were offered and were getting really frustrated. We knew that we were worth more than that, but it needed something to prod us into facing that. We were a bit choked to think that we'd done the whole of Neil's first album with him just for flat session fees when we could have been recording our own material".

On "Is This the Way to Amarillo?", it was originally "Is This the Way to Pensacola?" but in order to include the word "pillow" there had to be a town shift from Florida to Texas!


Anyhow, Billy Joel.......if Springsteen is at his best when leaning towards sensitivity, Joel may just achieve more when he heads towards the very austere and finds a bit of grit

I think lyrics and a story are very important in songs. Billy Joel was very good at giving a mental picture of people - Piano Man, I think is excellent. 10cc always good at adding irony into their songs - Rubber Bullets is a favourite and the Sheet Music album excellent.

[teamsaint]

There's no wrongs and rights. It is all factual opinion.

Had never heard that link before. Many thanks for it!!

I like the idea of " factual opinion".

Lots of songs by The Boss that I really like, but if I have to pick one, this one would choose itself.

I tend to enjoy his songs at least as much when performed by others, and especially " From Small things ( big things one day come). wonderful song.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Lots of songs by The Boss that I really like, but if I have to pick one, this one would choose itself.

- the entire album is superb (I'd've gone for Independence Day, messeln).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnAJlJHXn_M