Times row over new music

[french frank]

ff #25
(this may be off the point but still…)

It may be interesting/useful to point out to R3 (or the BBC) that many Radio3 listeners have young children in their families, including their own grandchildren, and some children do show clear signs of interest in music. Not necessarily picking up a violin at the age of three or trying to play Tom and Jerry on a toy piano but taking notice when they hear music, or stop doing what they are doing and look around for the source of the music, that sort f things. It would be very good if we could suggest to the parents to let the child hear the programme on Radio3.

There would be the matter then of the timing of the programme. Making Tracks was supposed/hoped to be when children were being collected from school, more often by a parent? But when I said 'code', I meant that was the reason Radio 3 gave, which could have been a way to rationalise axing the programme because it wasn't attracting a significant number of children. I think Mark Damazer's comments about Radio 4's unsuccessful attempts were more likely to be the case.

What does

'hiding children's radio within adult-focused formats

…mean? What sort of a programme will iit be?

1. Putting a Saturday morning 20-minute children's programme in the middle of CD Review?

2. Putting a (short?) children's programme on a station that was intended for adults?

[Serial_Apologist]

There would be the matter then of the timing of the programme. Making Tracks was supposed/hoped to be when children were being collected from school, more often by a parent? But when I said 'code', I meant that was the reason Radio 3 gave, which could have been a way to rationalise axing the programme because it wasn't attracting a significant number of children. I think Mark Damazer's comments about Radio 4's unsuccessful attempts were more likely to be the case.


1. Putting a Saturday morning 20-minute children's programme in the middle of CD Review?

2. Putting a (short?) children's programme on a station that was intended for adults?

We're all treated as children. On this morning's Today on R4 there were two short items, both (from what I could grasp) giving mention to a requiem commemorating victims of the Japanese tsunami, and in connectin with the intention to turn on the nuclear power stations there once more. Or was it (or one of them) in connection with Chernobyl?

Unfortunately I was involved in getting dressed and preparing breakfast at a time when my attention is attuned for listening to news items, and all I heard was some powerful-sounding string quartet music. This seems similar to the examples you offer of glibly slotting items of interest out of context into otherwise inappropriate programmes.

[doversoul1]

There would be the matter then of the timing of the programme. Making Tracks was supposed/hoped to be when children were being collected from school, more often by a parent? But when I said 'code', I meant that was the reason Radio 3 gave, which could have been a way to rationalise axing the programme because it wasn't attracting a significant number of children. I think Mark Damazer's comments about Radio 4's unsuccessful attempts were more likely to be the case.

1. Putting a Saturday morning 20-minute children's programme in the middle of CD Review?

2. Putting a (short?) children's programme on a station that was intended for adults?

I was thinking more about preschool age when children are much more receptive and unconditioned. Even for older children, I am sure that there are children who are interested in hearing classical music. Listening to the radio at home is ultimately the choice of individuals, unlike school programmes. Therefore, I think it will be more realistic and probably effective to nurture the interest than trying to cultivate from the scratch in the same way as to offer potential listeners something intellectually stimulating and not bits and morsels to entice undefined listeners. At least to start with. Radio3 is a radio station for those who are interested in classical music (and other music but we’ll leave that now). Majority of those are happened to be adults but it can’t say that the station is for adults.

All this is just me thinking aloud. By the way, I couldn’t find your letter in today’s Times.

[John Wright]

Been over this kind of discussion so much before on this forum, R3ok forum and the old Beeb forums. I am now of the opinion that a programme like 'Making Tracks' should get a slot on Radio 1 that's where the adolescent 'audience' already is.

And for Radio 2 bring back 'Your Hundred Best Tunes' (with a different title) that's where the 30-40 somethings getting fed up of pop music are.

I've been interested/listener to 'classical' music since my teens (late 1960s) but for a long time limited mainly to Baroque and later chamber music. Since the 1970s I was a listener to Radio 2 on Sundays including Melodies For You and Your Hundred Best Tunes which introduced me to the lighter orchestral and vocal 'classical' repertoire. It wasn't till 2001 or so that I began to appreciate the wider classical field and I do regard Melodies For You and Your Hundred Best Tunes as the main route in that journey.

NOTE: Your 100 Best Tunes ended in 2003. Charles Hazlewood tried a few classical programmes but I don't think he was the right person for Radio 2.

[Serial_Apologist]

And for Radio 2 bring back 'Your Hundred Best Tunes' (with a different title) that's where the 30-40 somethings getting fed up of pop music are.

And the also still much-missed "Mixing It", an easy-going, non-geeky induction to a wide range of new and non-western musical examples from Pygmy music by way of Krautrock to improv for that same age group and demographic, to act in tandem. I see both progreammes were axed in 2007.

[french frank]

By the way, I couldn’t find your letter in today’s Times.

It's headed Younger Radio 3.

They did edit out one reasonably important bit (now in blue): This is the unedited version -

Richard Morrison and your correspondents are right to emphasise the need for special efforts to be made to provide younger audiences with opportunities to experience classical music.
They are wrong to place the responsibility on Radio 3 (indeed, the BBC Trust has stated that it’s a BBC responsibility, rather than Radio 3’s).
Children and young people congregate where there are others of their age. Radio 3’s last children’s programme was axed because – we were told – too few listeners had children of the appropriate age. When Radio 4 dropped its children’s programme Go4it six years ago, the controller acknowledged that it sometimes registered ‘zero listeners from its target four-to-14 age range’.
Ten Pieces is an excellent initiative, as are the Family Proms. But there would need to be regular programming somewhere on the dedicated children’s and youth services in order to achieve lasting effect.
Instead, it’s rigorously excluded, most of the time, from most of the youth-oriented services – even the music services where, presumably, ‘it wouldn’t fit’ because it’s outside their audience’s musical experience."

I've just checked the Trust's review of BBC Children's services (2013). There was a survey there where they asked children what radio programmes/stations they listened to. Radio 1 and Radio 2 came top, plus Radio 4 and Radio 5 Live and various commercial stations. If Radio 3 was mentioned it scored less than 2% and so wasn't mentioned at all in the results.

[doversoul1]

Thanks.

I have no alternative ideas but putting 4 to 14 year olds in one audience group seems to me to be unworkable. From what I remember as a parent, Making Track sounded very much like adults being child-friendly which may have been fine for young children but definitely off putting for older ones. As for the survey about children’s radio listening habit, I wonder how many, say, under-6 choose programmes on the radio.

For younger children, I think it is important to influence / encourage their parents to let their children hear classical music. Catch them early, and all that.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

For younger children, I think it is important to influence / encourage their parents to let their children hear classical music. Catch them early, and all that.

I think that's the only really effective way.

[french frank]

For younger children, I think it is important to influence / encourage their parents to let their children hear classical music. Catch them early, and all that.

The flaw in that is that parents will do so if they are themselves classical listeners. If they are not, they have no reason or incentive to encourage their children.

I think there are some who look upon it as something they 'missed out on' which they'd like their children to 'learn about' (like having music lessons). But they aren't so clear about 'letting children hear it'.

I agree that lumping 4-14 year-olds together sounds pretty hopeless, but unless they're willing to triple or quadruple the programmes (4-6, 7-10, 11-14?), it's the best you're likely to get. Television does at least have CBeebies and CBBC (and BBC Three …………)

My suspicion was that the survey showed that children's radio listening almost entirely reflected their parents'.

[doversoul1]

That was why I mentioned young / pre-school children in the forum members’ families. Or for that matter, young children in R3’s listeners’ families. If there were a suitable regular programme on R3, we (R3’s listeners) could suggest to the parents to turn the radio on or tune into R3 (from R2) for 10 or 15 minutes. The incentive (the lack of it) is the problem but that, again, why I mentioned the young children who show interest in music. Even if the children show no obvious interest, most parents are willing enough to do something to ‘broaden’ their children’s minds. Telling them to take their children to live concerts isn’t always realistic or practical but turning on the radio for 15 minutes isn’t too heavy a task for them.

As for ‘learn about’, again, it will be important to send out the message to parent that the important thing is that children hear the music, and all parents have to do is to tune into the programme and leave it on. No need to talk about it unless children ask (then look at the website with children) Leaning about it can come later but it (learning about it) can’t come if children have not heard the music itself. All this, we /R3 listeners could do if only there were a suitable programme.

There is a programme called Melody (or something similar) on Cbeebies but this, being on television, presents music with images and narratives. I don’t think this is a very good idea. I think children need to hear music as music without having to always make up a story about it.

I know all this is idealistic and too small a minority for a radio station’s target, so it’s just a thought.

I bet a lot of three year olds would love L’Orfeo’d fanfar to dance to.

[french frank]

The problem is how you effect some kind of significant change which introduces 'people' more naturally to classical music (which used to happen), instead of tucking it away somewhere in a corner of the huge musical universe where they have first to know about it and then want to search for it.

Commercial pressures are too strong to make this an interesting idea for those who could facilitate it. A PSB should be above those concerns but social change doesn't make it easy.

[doversoul1]

Any/most significant changes usually have to begin with a small step. It takes time, rather like changing children’s eating habit or rather parents’ feeding habit. And attaching something to an already established body (R3 in this case) can be quite effective, as people have trust in it instead of having to make their own choice.

Catching them young is a good way of introducing people/children naturally to music, books or any other art/culture (or fresh food for that matter) that may not be naturally around in their lives.

Yes, Commercial pressure. I know what I am saying is a dream in an ideal world but it may just be possible if the right person comes along and goes about in the right way. Just for that 15 minutes.

[french frank]

I know what I am saying is a dream in an ideal world but it may just be possible if the right person comes along and goes about in the right way. Just for that 15 minutes.

They tried it on Radio 3 and it didn't work. Even the fondly remembered Pied Piper had an audience which was substantially adult.

It's the cooperation of those who have no obvious incentive to cooperate that needs attention. Grandparents are now in their 40s and 50s - the post-war 'pop' generations.

[doversoul1]

They tried it on Radio 3 and it didn't work. Even the fondly remembered Pied Piper had an audience which was substantially adult.

It's the cooperation of those who have no obvious incentive to cooperate that needs attention. Grandparents are now in their 40s and 50s - the post-war 'pop' generations.

Then at least they should know what didn’t work. Like some (a lot, in fact) children’s books that are praised and admired by adults, a programme that appeals to adults as a children’s programme is not necessarily interesting or even relevant to children. There is no reason (I know there are a lot of reasons, sigh...) not to make a fresh start.

Considering the fact that the ages of first time parents are considerably high these days, many grandparents are in their 60s who either remember the pre-pop days and/or have developed the taste for classical music later in their lives. And I am thinking about R3’s regular listeners.

Those who have no obvious incentive might just take notice of their family members or friends. But I know… (sigh again…)

[french frank]

Then at least they should know what didn’t work. Like some (a lot, in fact) children’s books that are praised and admired by adults, a programme that appeals to adults as a children’s programme is not necessarily interesting or even relevant to children.

That was exactly what Radio 3 thought - hence not 1970s-style Pied Piper with an expert presenter, but Making Tracks, with children's presenters out of their depth when they weren't playing the theme music from The Simpsons.

And I don't think in any case the 'grandparents' are likely to have significant influence very often unless they are babysitting for pre-school children.